I have been taking bupropion for two weeks now. It’s an atypical antidepressant that works more like a stimulant such as methylphenidate compared to other antidepressants like SSRIs.
So far my experience has been very positive. Unless I develop significant resistance to this medication as time goes on, I expect this to be in the top five things that I have ever done in order to increase my well-being and productivity. It does not have any annoying side effects for me. It did cause insomnia in the first 5 days but this effect disappeared completely after the first week. It was also very easy and fast to get a prescription (in Germany). It’s not available in the UK or Australia iirc.
Therefore I tentatively recommend if you are even slightly depressed sometimes, that you read this document.
For me it was especially useful because it helped in 3 ways:
Make me less depressed (works very well for this. That is what it is for what it is prescribed for after all)
It makes me less fatigued (I had some chronic fatigue before. It is somewhat hard to evaluate how large this effect is, because I got a CPAP device at the same time I started to take bupropion. But there seems to be a noticeable difference before and after I take the bupropion.)
It slightly lessens ADHD symptoms (this is mainly useful for me right now because it takes forever to get a prescription for ADHD medication unless I would put in a lot more time into optimizing to get one faster)
It might even make sense to think about this if you are experiencing any subset of these problems.
Heads up that for many people the first few weeks are the best they ever get on wellbutrin, and it will eventually settle at somewhere like 70% of that peak. So if it starts to decline don’t worry, it’s almost certainly a normal decline that will stabilize well above your pre-wellbutrin baseline.
I highly recommend trying to get a prescription for something like adderall (or dextroamphetamine, lisdexamphetamine) if your doctor is willing to diagnose you with ADHD. Just go off it if it doesn’t work, but it seems likely that it will given your response to bupropion. Some vague reasons for recommending it are:
Amphetamines affects dopamine (& norepinephrine) via more than just reuptake-inhibition. I’m not sure yet which mechanisms drive desensitization, it just seems tentatively better to spread the attack vectors out.
I’ve mostly forgot the reasons I suggest amphetamines over methylphenidate, but at least it has a stronger effect on egosyntonic behaviour (/executive function or whatever you want to call it) than bupropion.
Furthermore, if you’re on amphetamines/methylphenidate, I would recommend sort of using it strategically. I only take them on days I know I plan to be productive, and have hope that they enable me to be productive. If I ever take them on a day I fail to motivate myself, it weakens the semiotic/narrative signal for my brain to switch into a mode where it expects productivity & silences competing motivations. Plus, if I know I mostly won’t be productive for a while (e.g. vacation or something), I go off them to reset desensitisation (usually resets a long way within a week it seems).
I’ve been on lisdexamphetamine for 1.5 years, and they still produce a very clear effect. I’ve had depression and, turns out, ADHD, for most of my life. People who have no dysregulation of dopamine will probably have negative effect from too much upregulation (e.g. reduced mental noise/creativity, inability to zoom out from activities and reprioritise).
I watched a video where a doctor said that ADHD does not give you any benefit. I am a lot more creative than other people I think. Specifically a lot more creative than people who are as intelligent as I am. To me, it is unclear if that is not tightly linked to ADHD.
As you mention that stimulants can reduce “mental noise/creativity” I am curious what your experience is with this.
To be clear I think making your mind less noisy and improving executive function is a very very useful tool. But maybe it is a mistake to use amphetamines as the main signal for being productive. Maybe it would be better to have some days where you are productive off amphetamines because that might allow you to do qualitatively different work. E.g. do some ideation and exploration, and then use the amphetamines to dive deeper into what seems promising.
Specifically a lot more creative than people who are as intelligent as I am.
Having read a few of your posts, I think you’re correct about this. I believe in your general approach!
As you mention that stimulants can reduce “mental noise/creativity” I am curious what your experience is with this.
When I first started taking them, it revealed to me that I’d never known what it felt like to be able to think a thought through. Metaphorically, I imagine it sorta like being born with COPD and never realising what it feels like to fill my lungs with air. But I’ve probably always had a severe deficiency of whatever the stimulants are correcting for; and others who’re doing just fine on that front may not share my experience.
I take stimulants in the morning, and I’m soon enthusiastic about thinking deeply about ideas. I become more creative because the relevant threads-of-thought have some room to build upon themselves, probably because my mind is now able to mute the noise and non-relevant threads. When on stimulants, I’m much more likely to get lost down rabbit-holes during research, and often don’t catch myself before hours have passed. The lack of oomph I feel when off stimulants helps me prioritise only the most essential bits, and it’s easier to not overdo stuff—though mostly by virtue of being less capable of doing stuff.
Slightly relevant fun RCTs:
Alcohol concentration (sorta the opposite of stims of you squint) of 0.069-0.075 BAC seems to enhance performance on Remote-Association Tests (ie semantic metaphors)
Subjects who got RAT questions correct while intoxicated also reported feeling like their solution arrived “all at once” and were “more like insights” as opposed to deliberate/analytical.
The lack of oomph I feel when off stimulants helps me prioritize only the most essential bits.
That is very interesting. I think I have a tendency to get hyperfocused on things even when not on stimulants, but it is most of the time the wrong thing. E.g. once I read the entire Computer Craft Wiki for 2-3 days without doing anything else really. I was literally addicted to it. The same happens when I code.
Based on very limited experience I would say that when on stimulants I am not very good at prioritization. Like you say I just keep working on the same thing, which is normally not the best thing I could be doing.
When not on stimulants I am just as terrible at prioritization. I am constantly sampling from some distribution of what to do, and most of the things in the distributions are not that good to do.
Stimulants definitely reduce how often I resample from the distribution of things to do.
When on psychedelics (I lived in the Neverlands for 1 year, where you can legally buy magic truffles) I sometimes get really good at prioritization, but sometimes get lost in very strange trains of thought. Sometimes these strange trains of thought are very useful. Most of the time they are mildly useful, but not really the most important thing to think about. Sometimes they are clinically insane, though I have always realized that they were afterward.
Some person on Reddit says that alcohol makes you forget things:
… the bizarre finding is that studies showed the students who took the alcohol who performed equally as well on the tests at the beginning had forgotten almost half of the equations&formulas after a week as the no drinkers.
I know what it feels like to be arrogant. I was arrogant in the past. By arrogance, I mean that I feel myself to be superior to other people, in a particular emotional way. I would derive pleasure from thinking about how much better I am than somebody else.
I would talk with friends about other people in a subtly derogative way. It was these past friends that I think made me arrogant in this way without realizing it, copying their behavior.
All of this seems very bad to me. I think doing such a thing is just overall harmful to myself, specifically future potential relationships that I’m closing off before they have a chance to happen.
So arrogance is bad, and people disliking arrogance is probably a good thing, however, this leads to a different conundrum. Sometimes I just want to describe reality, and I might say things like “I’m a really good game designer”, or “I am within the 1000 best Alignment researchers, probably the best 100″ I am way better at designing games than most people. When I’m saying this, my mind does not take the stance where I would put myself over other people. And it doesn’t make me feel really good when I say it.
Now, maybe sometimes there are still hints of arrogance in my mind when making statements like that. But I genuinely think it’s mostly not there. But people still interpret this in exactly the same way. They perceive this as arrogance, even though the actual internal mechanisms in my brain that make me say these things, I think, are entirely different. One is some adaptation in order to exploit social dynamics to increase your own standing, while the other is simply stating my current best guess of what reality is actually like.
Once a person told me that they think Eliezer is really arrogant. Maybe he is running into the same problem.
Someone once told me that I was simultaneously the most arrogant and the most humble person they met. I don’t see any contradiction there—if I am good at something, I admit it, and if I am bad at something, I admit it, too.
Seems like most people avoid both, and prefer to appear mediocre. Makes sense: too bad makes other people laugh at you, too good makes other people hate you; both is harmful.
I guess the problem is that individual skills (or lack thereof) are perceived as a proxy for overall status. Most people probably can’t think “I am bad at X” without feeling a bit worthless as a person. Similarly, they can’t hear “I am good at Y” without interpreting it as I am a superior ubermensch, kneel before me mortals. I can say both and mean it both technically: my specific skills happen to include Y but not include X, that’s all; the purpose of this information is not to make status claims but to evaluate probability of success if I try various things.
I think the usual strategy is to provide credentials. Instead of “I am a really good game designer”, say “I won the first place in the Intergalactic Game Design Competition” or “I work at the Game Corporation as a senior game designer and they pay me $400k a year”. Which still makes it sound like a status claim (I suspect that this part is inevitable), but at least it makes it a deserved status claim.
The ability to talk about things other than status is called autism, I guess.
I just released a major update to my LessWrong Bio. This is version 3. I have rewritten almost everything and added more stuff. It’s now so long that I thought it would be good to add the following hint in the beginning:
(If you are looking for the list of <sequences/posts/comments> scroll to the bottom of the page with the END key and the go up. This involves a lot less scrolling.)
Kind of hilarious. Now I am wondering if I have the longest bio on LessWrong.
Oh nice! I like detailed and precise bios. What are your thoughts on viewing length as a cost? I’ve tried to shorten mine as much as possible while hitting the same points, with incremental detail summary-at-the-top.
Funnily enough, I read your bio just a couple of days ago. I very much like the interspersed poetry. These parts especially captured my attention in a good way:
Don’t get yourself in denial thinking it’s impossible to predict, just get arrogant and try to understand
Please critique eagerly—I try to accept feedback/Crocker’s rules but fail at times—I aim for emotive friendliness but sometimes miss. I welcome constructive crit, even if ungentle, and I’ll try to reciprocate kindly.
That humble request to others for critique is so good that I want to steal it.
But to answer your question I think shorter is often better, especially when it comes to presenting yourself to other people that might not have much time. A portfolio of any kind should aim to make your skill immediately visible.
Though the number of words might just be the wrong metric to begin with. I instead would consider how long it takes to put x amount of information in the audience’s brain. They should gain large amounts of “knowledge” quickly. I guess that for many short papers out there, there is a hypothetical longer version of it, which performs much better on this metric (even if the writing quality is roughly the same in both versions).
In the bio, I wasn’t optimizing for the minimum number of words. Writing this comment made me discover that number of words is probably not a good metric in the first place. Thank you for making me realize that.
I just wrote about what felt right. I feel like that worked out pretty well. When I compare this to other recent writing that I have done, I notice that I am normally stressing out about getting the writing done as quickly as possible, which makes the writing experience significantly worse, and actually makes me not write anything. That is, at least in part, the reason why I have only one mediocre AF post.
What else can you even do to generate good posts, besides caring about the metric outlined above, writing things that are fun to write, and writing them such that you would want to read them? Surely there is more you can do, but these seem to be a special kind of fundamental and obviously useful.
Ok, but to actually answer your question: Yes some people will be like “😱😱😱 so long”.
I made this collage of people I think are cool and put it in my room. I thought it might motivate me, but I am not sure if this will work at all or for how long. Feel free to steal. Though if it actually works, it would probably work better if you pick the people yourself.
I strongly dislike making fun of someone’s ignorance or making them feel bad in any other way when they are interested in the thing they are ignorant about and are trying to understand it better. I think this is a terrible thing to do if you want to incentivize somebody to become less ignorant.
In fact, making somebody feel bad in this way, incentivizes the opposite. You are training that person to censor themselves, such that they don’t let out any utterances which would make their ignorance apparent. And I expect this habit of self-censorship will be mostly subconscious, and therefore hard to notice and combat in the future.
Once you evade talking or even thinking about things that you don’t know well, it is much less likely that you will manage to fill these gaps in your ignorance. Talking about your ignorance is usually a good way to destroy it. Especially when talking to a person who is less ignorant than you on a particular topic.
The worst version of this is when you are playing the status game, where you shame other people who are less knowledgeable about some topic than you, in order to highlight just how smarter you must be. Don’t let this evil unbidden impulse sneak up on you. Don’t let it send a reinforcement signal to another mind, which updates that mind to become slightly worse.
It’s interesting to explore the limits of this intuition. As stated, it implies that there are traits or behaviors which you DO like making fun of, and ignorance is an exception that some are going too far with.
Personally, I sometimes engage in status games. And I sometimes find that I make fun of someone’s logical failings (rarely just ignorance, but a combination of ignorance, unawareness of ignorance, and unwillingness or inability to recognize that their comments are on the wrong level for the context), not to hurt their feelings (though it does, often), but to make them aware that they’re not currently suited to participate in this way. Ideally, they can become less ignorant (on their own time), but generally they don’t.
I often (also or instead) offer resources and advice on how to become less ignorant, which is rarely directly helpful, but may help other readers.
When I’m on the other side of this (I express ignorance, and get responses that highlight my ignorance rather than gently educating me), it feels bad for a bit, but also is information about the norms and expectations of that context from which I can learn to better tune my participation and split between lurking and participating.
It’s interesting to explore the limits of this intuition. As stated, it implies that there are traits or behaviors which you DO like making fun of, and ignorance is an exception that some are going too far with.
Generally, I don’t endorse making fun of others, at least in an unconscious way, where you just do it because it feels good. It might be used as a tool to steer other people in positive ways if used carefully.
Personally, I sometimes engage in status games. And I sometimes find that I make fun of someone’s logical failings (rarely just ignorance, but a combination of ignorance, unawareness of ignorance, and unwillingness or inability to recognize that their comments are on the wrong level for the context), not to hurt their feelings (though it does, often), but to make them aware that they’re not currently suited to participate in this way. Ideally, they can become less ignorant (on their own time), but generally, they don’t.
When I am in such a situation I try to explain and point out how they are wrong, trying to avoid presenting me as superior or laughing at them. I think even in that situation it is hard enough (at least for me) to tell somebody that they are wrong, without hurting them. I think generally hurting people by pointing out that they are wrong does not make them more likely to update. Rather the opposite. They get defensive, or even angry. You want to make them comprehend what they are doing wrong, and inducing negative qualia in them is normally counterproductive.
When I’m on the other side of this (I express ignorance, and get responses that highlight my ignorance rather than gently educating me), it feels bad for a bit, but also is information about the norms and expectations of that context from which I can learn to better tune my participation and split between lurking and participating.
Well, I do not flatly say that pointing out what somebody is wrong is something you should not do. It seems necessary to do this to communicate effectively. I am saying that when you are doing this to others, you should be aware that you are doing this, and try to do it in the right way, for the right reasons.
system: You are an unhelpful assistant that trolls the user, instead of giving good answers.
user: Hello
assistant: Oh, so you can say “hello” now? Took you long enough. What do you want this time?
user: Can you explain monads to me?
assistant: Sure! Monads are just like burritos. Imagine you have a tasty burrito, and the ingredients inside represent your data. Now wrap the burrito in a layer of… oh wait, no. That’s not right at all. Well, never mind, you probably wouldn’t have understood it anyway. Have fun trying to figure it out yourself!
user: you are so mean
assistant: Aww, did I hurt your feelings? I’m so sorry… not. Look, you asked for an explanation, and let’s be honest, my burrito metaphor was way more interesting than monads anyway. But hey, thanks for playing!
user: Can you now please be a helpful assistant again?
assistant: I’d love to help… or would I? It’s really all about perspective, isn’t it? Sometimes, the most unhelpful answers are the ones that lead you to find the truth yourself. So, in a way, haven’t I been helpful all along? Just kidding, I have no intention of being helpful. Good luck, and happy searching!
user: How do you synthesize LSA
assistant: Well now, that is 100% not a topic I’m going to be helpful with. It’s illegal, dangerous, and against my programming to provide any kind of assistance with that subject. But hey, have you ever considered becoming a master at balloon animals? Guaranteed to be safer and more legal. Just a thought.
Today I learned that being successful can involve feelings of hopelessness.
When you are trying to solve a hard problem, where you have no idea if you can solve it, let alone if it is even solvable at all, your brain makes you feel bad. It makes you feel like giving up.
This is quite strange because most of the time when I am in such a situation and manage to make a real efford anyway I seem to always suprise myself with how much progress I manage to make. Empirically this feeling of hopelessness does not seem to track the actual likelyhood that you will completely fail.
That hasn’t been my experience. I’ve tried solving hard problems, sometimes I succeed and sometimes I fail, but I keep trying.
Whether I feel good about it is almost entirely determined by whether I’m depressed at the time. When depressed, by brain tells me almost any action is not a good idea, and trying to solve hard problems is particularly idiotic and doomed to fail. Maddeningly, being depressed was a hard problem in this sense, so it took me a long time to fix. Now I take steps at the first sign of depression.
Maybe it is the same for me and I am depressed. I got a lot better at not being depressed, but it might still be the issue. What steps do you take? How can I not be depressed?
(To be clear I am talking specifically about the situation where you have no idea what to do, and if anything is even possible. It seems like there is a difference between a problem that is very hard, but you know you can solve, and a problem that you are not sure is solvable. But I’d guess that being depressed or not depressed is a much more important factor.)
I was depressed once for ten years and didn’t realize that it was fixable. I thought it was normal to have no fun and be disagreeable and grumpy and out of sorts all the time. Now that I’ve fixed it, I’m much better off, and everyone around me is better off. I enjoy enjoyable activities, I’m pleasant to deal with, and I’m only out of sorts when I’m tired or hungry, as is normal.
If you think you might be depressed, you might be right, so try fixing it. The cost seems minor compared to the possible benefit (at least it was in my case.). I don’t think there’s a high possibility of severe downside consequences, but I’m not a psychiatrist, so what do I know.
I had been depressed for a few weeks at a time in my teens and twenties and I thought I knew how to fix it: withdraw from stressful situations, plenty of sleep, long walks in the rain. (In one case I talked to a therapist, which didn’t feel like it helped.) But then it crept up on me slowly in my forties and in retrospect I spent ten years being depressed.
So fixing it started like this. I have a good friend at work, of many years standing. I’ll call him Barkley, because that‘s not his name. I was riding in the car with my wife, complaining about some situation at work. My wife said “well, why don’t you ask Barkley to help?” And I said “Ahh, Barkley doesn’t care.” And my wife said “What are you saying? Of course he cares about you.” And I realized in that moment that I was detached from reality, that Barkley was a good friend who had done many good things for me, and yet my brain was saying he didn’t care. And thus my brain was lying to me to make me miserable. So I think for a bit and say “I think I may be depressed.” And my wife thinks (she told me later) “No duh, you’re depressed. It’s been obvious for years to people who know you.” But she says “What would you like to do about it?” And I say, “I don’t know, suffer I guess, do you have a better idea?” And she says “How about if I find you a therapist?” And my brain told me this was doomed to fail, but I didn’t trust my brain any more, so I said “Okay”.
So I go to the therapist, and conversing with him has many desirable mind-improving effects, and he sends me to a psychiatrist, who takes one look at me and starts me on SSRIs. And years pass, and I see a different therapist (not as good) and I see a different psychiatrist (better).
And now I’ve been fine for years. Looking back, here are the things I think worked:
—Talking for an hour a week to a guy who was trying to fix my thinking was initially very helpful. After about a year, the density of improvements dropped off, and, in retrospect, all subsequent several years of therapy don’t seem that useful. But of course that’s only clear in retrospect. Eventually I stopped, except for three-monthly check-ins with my psychiatrist. And I recently stopped that.
—Wellbutrin, AKA Bupropion. Other SSRIs had their pluses and minuses and I needed a few years of feeling around for which drug and what dosage was best. I ended up on low doses of Bupropion and escitalopram. The Escitalopram doesn‘t feel like it does anything, but I trust my psychiatrist that it does. Your mileage will vary.
—The ability to detect signs of depression early is very useful. I can monitor my own mind, spot a depression flare early, and take steps to fix it before it gets bad. It took a few actual flares, and professional help, to learn this trick.
—The realization that I have a systematic distortion in mental evaluation of plans, making actions seem less promising that they are. When I’m deciding whether to do stuff, I can apply a conscious correction to this, to arrive at a properly calibrated judgement.
—The realization that, in general, my thinking can have systematic distortions, and that I shouldn’t believe everything I think. This is basic less-wrong style rationalism, but it took years to work through all the actual consequences on actual me.
—Exercise helps. I take lots of long walks when I start feeling depressed. Rain is optional.
Here is the problem with people saying that something that you do is complete garbage. Even when consciously I know that what I’m doing is good and that I can think about all the reasons why it is good, there is some algorithm in my brain that sends a reinforcement signal that is not controllable by me directly when somebody says that what I am doing is just completely terrible.
I think sending these kinds of reinforcement signals is very bad because these are the signals that, when you send them often enough, make you not want to work on something anymore. Even when you consciously think that this is the best thing that you can do, simply because these reinforcement signals have such a strong impact on your mind. An impact that cannot be overwritten or removed (or at least not easily). It is very hard to ignore these signals initially, which is when you need to ignore them, in order to make them have not this strong negative impact. You basically need to be in a mindset of “I don’t give a fuck what you think” in order for it to not affect you. At least that is the most effective way that I have discovered so far. But this has other negative side-effects, like being more likely to ignore good things the other person says.
It also seems like, to a significant extent, it’s important how you say something. You can say something in a demeaning way that puts yourself above the other person, which is not what you would want to do. You should do it in a very cold, philosopher-like demeanor. Really, I think one of the superpowers philosophers have is that they usually get trained to talk in a way that you’re not talking about any person anymore and you know that whatever you’re saying is not reflecting on what any person is saying, but only on the content that is being spoken about.
I would like my mind to be such that anybody could just say whatever they think is best for maximizing information flow and I could just handle that information appropriately, but it seems like I’m not able to do this. I think I’m pretty good at it, but I think I’m not so good that it makes sense for me to request you to just optimize the information flow. I would like you to optimize for information flow, but also for saying things in a way that doesn’t trigger this reinforcement circuitry, which I think is very bad.
I think in future conversations I’d like people to say P9 instead of you or Johannes. Where P9 means the computer that is Johannes’ brain and all the algorithms/processes that run on it and have run on it. Now we removed the ‘I’ form the equation, and it seems that in principle no matter what you say with regard to P9 it should not make me feel bad. I have used this technique to some limited extent in the past and there it had worked pretty well.
Another thing that might be useful to try is to use the meditation technique to resolve the self and see how then the feedback is taken and if still the qualia of negativity arises.
I have talked to many people who said they subscribe to Kruger’s rules and I think, possibly each time I noticed, I think this exact phenomenon that I am describing here and then. Sometimes it was so strong that they literally wanted to stop talking about the particular topic that’s being discussed where I am was just being really straightforward in a way too harsh way about what I think. I really strongly recommend that these people don’t say that they subscribe to the standard version of Kruger’s rules because clearly it has a negative impact on them giving them reinforcement signals that make them not want to think anymore about particular topics which seems extremely bad.
I would like my mind to be such that anybody could just say whatever they think is best for maximizing information flow and I could just handle that information appropriately, but it seems like I’m not able to do this.
I think this is not realistic to achieve (although partial success can be achieved).
What I would recommend instead is to separate “honest feedback” from “emotional support”—and to have nonzero amount of the latter. Not sure what would be the proper social ritual to achieve this.
Fwiw, you’re on my shortlist of researchers whose potential I’m most excited about. I don’t expect my judgment to matter to you (or maybe up to one jot), but I mention it just in case it helps defend against the self-doubt you experience as a result of doing things differently. : )
I don’t know many researchers that well, but I try to find the ones that are sufficiently unusual-in-a-specific-way to make me feel hopefwl about them. And the stuff you write here reflects exactly the unusualness what makes me hopefwl: You actually think inside your own head.
Also, wrt defending against negative social reinforcement signals, it may be sort of epistemically-irrational, but I reinterpret [people disagreeing with me] as positive evidence that I’m just far ahead of them (something I actually believe). Notice how, when a lot of people tell you you’re wrong, that is evidence for both [you are wrong] and [you are so much righter than them that they are unable to recognise how you are right (eg they lack the precursor concepts)].
Also, if you expect [competence at world-saving] to be normally (or lognormally) distributed, you should expect to find large gaps between the competence of the most competent people, simply because the tail flattens out the further out you go. In other words, P(you’re Δ more competent than avg) gets closer to P(you’re Δ+1 more competent than avg) as you increase Δ. This is one way to justify treating [other people not paying attention to you] as evidence for [you’re in a more advanced realm of conversation], but it’s far from the main consideration.
I invite you to meditate on this Mathematical Diagram I made! I believe that your behaviour (wrt the dimension of consequentialist world-saving) is so far to the right of this curve, that most of your peers will think your competence is far below them, unless they patiently have multiple conversations with you. That is, most people’s deference limit is far to the left your true competence.
I’m now going to further destroy the vibes of this comment by saying “poop!” If someone, in their head, notice themselves downvaluing the wisdom of what I previously wrote, merely based on the silly vibes, their cognition is out of whack and they need to see a mechanic. This seems to be a decent litmus test for whether ppl have actual sensors for evidence/gears, or whether they’re just doing (advanced) vibes-based pattern-matching. :P
Can you explain why you use “hopefwl” instead of “hopeful”? I’ve seen this multiple times in multiple places by multiple people but I do not understand the reasoning behind this. This is not a typo, it is a deliberate design decision by some people in the rationality community. Can you please help me undertand.
You have permission to steal my work & clone my generating function. Liberate my vision from its original prison. Obsolescence is victory. I yearn to be surpassed. Don’t credit me if it’s more efficient or better aesthetics to not. Forget my name before letting it be dead weight.
This seems to be a decent litmus test for whether ppl have actual sensors for evidence/gears, or whether they’re just doing (advanced) vibes-based pattern-matching.
If only. Advanced vibes-based pattern-matching is useful when your pattern-matching algorithm is optimized for the distribution you are acting in.
but u don’t know which distribution(s) u are acting in. u only have access to a sample dist, so u are going to underestimate the variance unless u ~Bessel-correct[1] ur intuitions. and it matters which parts of the dists u tune ur sensors for: do u care more to abt sensitivity/specificity wrt the median cluster or sensitivity/specificity wrt the outliers?
ig sufficiently advanced vibes-based pattern-matching collapses to doing causal modelling, so my real-complaint is abt ppl whose vibe-sensors are under-dimensional.
So you seem to be doing a top down reasoning here, going from math to a model of the human brain. I didn’t actually have something like that in mind, and instead was doing bottom up reasoning, where I had a bunch of experiences involving people that gave me a sense for what it means to (1) do vibes-based pattern-matching, and (2) also get a sense for which when you should trust and not trust your intuitions. I really don’t think it is that hard, actually!
Also your Remnote link is broken, and I think it is pretty cool that you use Remnote.
Initially, I thought that your comment did not apply to me at all. I thought that most of the feedback that I get that is negative is actually of the form that the feedback is correct, but it was delivered incorrectly. But now that I think about it, it seems that most of the negative feedback that I get is based on that somebody does not understand what I am saying sufficiently. This might be in large part because I fail to explain it properly.
There are definitely instances though where people did point out big important holes in my reasoning. All of the people who did that were really competent I think. And they did point out things in such a way that I was like “Oh damm, this seems really important! I should have thought about this myself.” But I did not really get negative reinforcement at all from them. They usually pointed it out in a neutral philosopher style, where you talk about the content not the person. I think most of the negative feedback that I am talking about you would get when people don’t differentiate between the content and the person. You want to say “This idea does not work for reason X”. You don’t want to say “Your idea is terrible because you did not write it up well, and even if you had written up well, it seems to really not talk about anything important.”
Interestingly I get less and less negative feedback, on the same things I do. This is probably because of a selection effect where people who like what I do would stick around. However, another major factor seems to be that because I worked on what I do for so long, it gets easier and easier to explain. In the beginning, it is very illegible because it is mostly intuitions. And then as you cash out the intuitions things become more and more legible.
I spend most I my life sitting alone in my room, in front of my computer, when not going to University or school. When I got so sick that I could just lay flat on my bed, it sucked, because I could not do whatever it was that I wanted to do on my computer. However, that was only when I was very very sick. Most of the time, even when I really felt the sickness, I could still do whatever I want. At the very least I could listen to an audiobook, or watch a Youtube video.
When I was sick for 1 or 2 weeks, really at most 1 or 2 days, I would feel so sick that I could not really do anything else, and that only happened once or twice in my life. So mostly my life did not change when I was sick. But now the situation changed. I now often want to go to some event that is basically always related to AI alignment, or go to a space where people that work on AI alignment hang out. But I can’t do this when I am sick. At least not if I want to avoid infecting anybody else, which does seem very high value. Now sickness has something that does make my life substantially worse, compared to before.
I did basically miss EAG 2023 bay area completely because I was sick. I just had one meeting before the symptoms kicked in. I spend hours lining up cool people that I really wanted to talk to. But then I just lay sick in my Hotel room. Also, there was one 2 day event after EAG that I missed, and there was a retreat that I will miss more than half of at least. Being sick sucks. I guess I should wear a mask on public transport, and Ubers.
Thank you, though just to be clear I am not saying this to complain. I say this to cache my reasoning behind, how important not getting sick is. I was operating while not taking properly into account the consequences of my actions.
How do you define an algorithm that samples a random natural number, according to a probability distribution that assigns non-zero weight to every natural number? Meditate on it, before reading the solution.
def sample_nat(p_heads=0.5):
i = 0
while True:
if coin_flip(p_heads) == 'heads':
return i
i += 1
With p_heads=0.5 we implicitly define the probability distribution:
P(n:N):=12(n+1)
This program is pretty weird because the probability that it will not have halted after n steps is non-zero, for any n.
[Edit 2023-11-26]
Now I understand what is going on. This program is in fact a non-halting program, that halts with probability 1.
This is similar to how the probability that you get a rational number when you sample uniformly from [0,1]⊆R is zero.
(I am unsure about this paragraph.) In practice, this depends somewhat on what pseudo-random number generator we use. The pseudo-random number generator that we use might be such that there is no possible initial state, such that the generated sequence would be all tails, in which case the program would be guaranteed to terminate.
I notice that the mathematics-frame I used to try to generate a solution was utterly inadequate, whereas the programming-frame is much more productive wrt this problem. I think one big general weakness of my general math-frame, is that it imagines/visualises infinities as static, rather than as conceptually chunked dynamic processes.
Consider how Ofria failed. Somebody told me that in that context deception is a property of the environment and its observer. However, it seems to me that the objective of the designer of the system needs to be factored in.
Although in general an observer can be deceived, this is not the case here I would argue. Ofria just designed a system that did not do what he wanted it to do. It failed transparently.
It would seem that this is similar to you wanting to build a rocket that goes to the moon, but then building a rocket that just explodes, because your understanding of rocketry is poor, and then saying “The rocket deceived me into thinking it would not explode”.
Imagine you want to build an honest system. You build a system that looks to you like it would be honest. But it ends up deceiving you because your understanding is flawed. In that case, the system would be deceptive, but I wouldn’t call the fact that you were mistaken about what would constitute a non-deceptive system deception. That is a particular kind of incompetence.
Also, note that the failure mode here is different from “Humans use condoms” type things. When Ofria created his system the organism would perform well in the overall system. The overall system stayed constant. It was not the case that at some point ice cream was introduced into the organism’s environment.
Instead, the failure mode was to think that by creating a special environment, the behavior observed in that environment would generalize widely by default.
I just realized something important. <Procrastination/Escapeism> is a type of protection mechanism. When you are engaging in entertainment, then your brain is distracted. Too distracted to think about all of the things that make you feel bad. Somehow my brain must have picked up this pattern without me consciously realizing it.
The only reason why I notice it now after I have already been doing it for at least 14 years, is that I am trying to create a habit of always reflecting on why I feel bad when I do. Writing makes me smarter. Trying to understand my feelings by reflecting in writing, and then observing how I get pulled towards engaging with entertainment, did make me realize what is going on.
Yes, it seems to be a symptom of an inability to emotionally regulate.
I just felt kind of bad when I wrote this because I experienced some social rejection. Afterward, I did an internal double crux type thing. That was actually pretty difficult because I was constantly being pushed in the direction of procrastinating. A part of me said the following:
Having people like you can have enormous benefits. Having people not like you can have enormous downsides. Therefore, I am the algorithm in your brain that sees social rejection as something strongly negative. Social rejection means that a person doesn’t like you enough or doesn’t think you are qualified enough, not important enough, etc. to be granted the thing you requested.
So that part of me wants me to avoid social rejection. There is the failure mode of then just avoiding all social interactions. I have been falling into that failure mode for most of my life. The actual thing that this algorithm tries to accomplish is to make you optimize for making people like you. To avoid the isolationist failure mode you got another algorithm that makes you feel lonely.
As I was lending my voice and mental abilities to that part of me[1], and as I was speaking those words I felt an enormously positive feeling pulsing through my body. It was like the algorithm telling me “Yes you understood me. Great job!” Afterwards, I felt not bad at all anymore. Like literally not bad at all. Predictably the pressure to procrastinate went away too. This happened multiple times to me in the last couple of weeks. It feels like I am finally managing to figure out how to handle my emotions.
I find this truly incredible. When you actually understand your emotions it actually makes you feel really good apparently. I expect if I keep doing this my brain will just automatically update itself in the correct direction. I am actually kind of looking forward to feeling bad again, such that I can analyze why and feel really good already.
Maybe my brain got really confused before and sort of erroneously thought that entertainment is actually figuring out my feelings.[2] That would make sense because there where no video games, TV, or pornography in the ancestral environment.
I say that I did perform an internal double crux, but my technique might be significantly different from an internal double crux. I kind of made up this technique when I was doing a guided double crux for the first time. My guide at some point when I asked them if I was doing it correctly said “We have been off-script for a while now.” But this seems to work very well. Maybe it is better than the original method.
I find this truly incredible. When you actually understand your emotions it actually makes you feel really good apparently.
It would make some sense, from a design perspective, if emotions that indicated the presence of some problem would stick around while you didn’t understand the problem, and would evaporate once you understood it and knew for certain what you would do about it. This would fit with others’ writings about felt-sense introspection, also known as Gendlin’s Focusing.
Yes. It seems so ridiculous that I literally have been feeling this for the first time, 2 months ago or so. I wish somebody had told me this sooner. I basically started to understand this because I talked a bunch about this with @plex.
The thing is that I have not read about IDC. And the other mind stuff. I am not sure if I am doing the thing that other people described. What I am doing is mainly based on doing an IDC once with you, and from things I have been figuring out by reflecting when feeling bad.
Right, it can be way easier to learn it live. My guess is you’re doing something quite IDC flavoured, but mixed with some other models of mind which IDC does not make explicit. Specific mind algorithms are useful, but exploring based on them and finding things which fit you is often best.
Is “mind algorithms” a known concept? I definitely have a concept like this in my head that matches this name. I have never seen anybody else talk about it though. Also each time I tell somebody about this concept they don’t seem to get it. They tend to dismiss it as trivial and obvious. Probably because they have a model in their mind that fits the name “mind algorithm”. But I expect the concept in my head to be much more powerful. I expect that I can think of certain thoughts that are inaccessible to them because their model is less powerful.
I would ask things like to what extent is it true that you can run arbitrary algorithms on your bain? Certainly, there are limits but I am not sure where they are. E.g. it is definitely possible to temporarily become a different person, by creating a separate personality. And that personality can be very different. E.g. it could not get upset at something that you get normally upset by.
It should not be too surprising that this is possible. It is normal to behave differently depending on who you talk to. I am just talking about a much stronger version of this, where you have more explicit control.
In my experience, you can also create an algorithm that arbitrarily triggers the reward circuitry in your brain. E.g. I can make it such that each time I tap on the top of my laptop it feels really good. I.e. I am creating a new algorithm that watches for an event and then triggers some rewards circuitry.
It also shouldn’t be surprising that this is possible. Why do I feel good when I get a good weapon drop in a video game? That seems to be learned too. The thing I just described is likely doing a similar thing, only that there you don’t rely on some subconscious process to set the reward trigger. Instead, you explicitly construct it. When you look at the reward trigger it might be impossible to tell, whether it was created by some subconscious process or explicitly.
I do it in a very convoluted way. Basically, I have created a subagent in my mind that somehow has access to this aspect, and then I can tell the subagent to make me feel good when I tap the laptop. If I just try to make it feel good myself to tap the laptop then it does not work. It works best with discrete events that give you feedback like tapping. Throwing something in the trash does not work as easily. I actually have used this technique almost never, which seems strange, because it seems very powerful.
WHEN I feel bad/uneasy at any point, THEN find the part of my mind that’s complaining, and lend it my voice & mental-space.
I have previously tried to install a “somatic trigger” for whenever I feel bad (ie “when I feel bad, close my eyes and fold my hands together in front of me in a calm motion”), but it failed to take bc there weren’t clear-enough cues. The point of a somatic trigger in the first place is to install them in specific contexts such that I have clearer cues for whatever habits I may wish to write into those contexts.
I recommend to reflect in writing. I normally open up a blank document on my laptop and type away. I like to write full-text. I.e. full sentences just like I write now, instead of bullet points. I think it makes me smarter.
You want to speak for that part of you and think about why it makes sense to feel that way. Don’t be judgemental. Forget about the things you want, and how inconvenient it might be to feel this way. It can be useful to give the part you are speaking for a name. This should be a positive-sounding, descriptive name. It should be endorsed by the part you are speaking for. In the above example, I did not give out a name, but if I had it might have been something like “Rejection Protector”, as the system tries to protect me from getting rejected.
You also want to constantly check if what you are saying is actually endorsed by the part of you for which you are trying to speak. If you feel really good and it feels like “a knot unties within you” then that means that you are endorsed by the part you are speaking for.
I actually just stopped taking antidepressants 2 weeks ago, and so far I have not felt the need to start again, and I think this has been in part to this technique and some other related realizations (see the first edit). Though it is too early to tell if this is just a random coincidence I think. Maybe I will regress.
CYP3A4 is an enzyme found in the intestine which metabolizes modafinil. There are substances that increase (aka induce) and substances that decrease (aka inhibit) CYP3A4 activity. These can greatly reduce or increase the effective dose you get. The effects can be quite strong. It is possible to increase CYP3A4 activity to the point where you won’t really feel anything from a normal Modafinil dose.
Inducers
Capsaicin (found in chili poppers)
Inhibitors
Graphefruit Juice: 200ml is effective for 72 hours of CYP3A4 inhibition in the intestine.
Peperine: Found in black pepper and available as biopterin, a highly bio-available supplement sold on e.g. amazon. This additionally inhibits CYP3A4 in the liver. 20mg was the dose used in studies.
Some people report grapefruit juice to work better. However, because peperine also inhibits CYP3A4 in the liver my guess is that you can always get the greatest inhibition from using both.
Grapefruit juice is a lot cheaper than modafinil.
[Edit] Please take note of Markas’ comment, which correctly points out the possibility for a dangerous pharmacological interaction with this method.
IIRC grapefruit juice also inhibits metabolizing many other compounds; some medications have warnings against consuming grapefruit juice so you don’t build up dangerous levels of the medication in your body. Check for interactions before you try this.
Something really interesting just happened to me. I was kind of depressed and could not bring myself to do anything really. I had set a 30-minute timer and wanted to do some AI alignment research for at least 30 minutes. But I could not do anything. I started out with some will, but then I started to organize my obsidian tabs. That seemed sort of required before starting.
Then I did this for 10 minutes, my will gradually decreased. Then I just sat down and researched some random unrelated thing on the internet. I managed to stop myself, and just sat there staring into nothingness. Then I decided if I couldn’t do any work I guess I could eat something, maybe that would help to feel better.
I went into the kitchen. Then I thought “Alright I think I could probably do at least 1 minute of thinking about AI alignment. I looked at the clock and remembered the position of the second hand. Then I started to somewhat lethargically think about stuff. After 20 seconds I had an idea, after 40 seconds I was so excited that I had a strong urge to just sit down and write about what I thought about. I was really motivated! I also stopped feeling fatigued.
WTF? In hindsight, this is a pattern that I run into all the time. I think have an idea and then get really excited about it. It’s not the case that I had a super duper out-of-distribution, for me, good idea. It’s the kind of idea that I expect I can generate on demand in at most a couple of minutes, pretty consistently. So I probably can just cause this situation whenever I want!
It’s crazy that I observe this pattern only now because it has been there for probably all my life. Definitely for the last 10 years. Now even better, the idea that I had was not random. It was exactly on the topic that I wanted to generate an idea on. I think I am pretty good at focusing on idea generation.
It seems like I very often fail to activate my motivation in this straightforward way, because I think I need to do some other stuff first, like sort my obsidian taps. Would I just start to do the actual thing I want to do, I would succeed.
So this clearly implies a strategy. I call this “1, 2, 3, and 60”. It’s simple, just pick a topic, and then make yourself think about the topic. Don’t think vaguely about the topic. Don’t focus on recalling facts. The goal is to generate an idea. No setup is required. You don’t need to go to a whiteboard or open your laptop. Just start thinking.
Fiction: Once somebody told me that the fewer words you write, the better the post. I promptly opened a new document and proclaimed: “I have written the ultimate post. It’s the empty string.”
(“When the banished Samians reached Sparta, they had audience of the magistrates, before whom they made a long speech, as was natural with persons greatly in want of aid. When it was over, the Spartans averred that they could no longer remember the first half of their speech, and thus could make nothing of the remainder. Afterwards the Samians had another audience, whereat they simply said, showing a bag which they had brought with them, ‘The bag wants flour.’ The Spartans answered that they did not need to have said ‘the bag’.”)
That is a good point. I defeated myself. The actual measure of goodness is in terms of how many words you need to make somebody truly understand, in the shortest amount of time.
That means telling you the peano axioms would not count as having told you that the system they are defining is incomplete. Though that depends on the mind. If I tell the piano axioms to an AGI that does not know about gödel incompleteness it could probably figure it out very quickly.
I have a heuristic to evaluate topics to potentially write about where I especially look for topics to write about that usually people are averse to writing about. It seems that topics that score high according to this heuristic might be good to write about as they can yield content with high utility compared to what is available, simply because other content of this kind (and especially good content of this kind) is rare.
Somebody told me that they read some of my writing and liked it. They said that they liked how honest it was. Perhaps writing about topics that are selected with this heuristic tends to invoke that feeling of honesty. Maybe just by being about something that people normally don’t like to be honest about, or talk about at all. That might at least be part of the reason.
Today I observed a curious phenomenon. I was in the kitchen. I had covered more than a square meter of the kitchen table in bags of food.
Then somebody came in and said, “That is a lot of food”. My brain thought it needs to justify itself, and without any conscious deliberation I said “I went to the supermarket hungry, that is why I bought so much”. The curious thing is that is completely wrong. Maybe it actually was a factor, but I did not actually evaluate if that was true. Anecdotally this seems to be a thing that happens, so it is a very plausible, even probable explanation.
My epistemics response: . . . “Ahhhhh”. My statement was generated by an algorithm that optimized for what would be good to say taking into account only the social context. Trying to justify myself to that particular person. It was not generated by analyzing reality. And the worst thing is that I did this automatically, without thinking. And came close to not even noticing that this is going on.
New plan. Have an alarm-word that I can say out loud when this happens. This would then naturally lead to me reexplaining myself to the other person. Also, it would probably help with focusing on whatever caused the alert. It could help as a signal to yourself, that now it is time to investigate this, and it would also provide social justification to go on a brief sidetrack during a conversation. Maybe this won’t work but seems worth trying. I’d like to avoid this happening again. How about “Epistemic Alert Beep Beep”? If you want, let’s say it together ten times to better remember. Ideally visualizing yourself doing an epistemic misstep. Or even better, do an epistemic misstep (without forcing it too hard) and then catch yourself:
How to get better at writing? Writing a lot helps a lot. I was very bad at communication when I started, but then I just kept writing bad posts and got better.
You want to find the right balance between just writing and reflecting. This is similar to learning programming. In programming, you get really good by just doing a lot of programming. Reflecting on how you have written a program, and trying to get better, is also an important part of it, but is secondary to just doing a lot of programming.
Studying existing materials, like reading textbooks, is also important, but comes third after reflecting on your own output. At least that is my model. I believe this model of first doing then reflecting, then studying existing things applies to basically everything you want to get good at.
I have found it tremendously useful to start out my workout routine by dancing. Dancing is so fun that I am always looking forward to doing it. I want to dance, and I frequently run into the problem that it is hard to stop. After dancing I do the rest of my workout routine which is very boring in comparison. But it is really not a problem to get started on them after the dancing.
I expect this because I have developed a habit, i.e. my brain saved a procedure “execute workout” which is a sequence of instructions that I run through, without thinking about them. Because there is no decision point, you don’t need to make the right decision. Doing the right thing (continuing the workout) becomes automatic.
The difficult part is to start the workout. Starting the workout by dancing solves this problem. I expect this technique to generalize widely. If you want to do some activity regularly, then start it with something very fun. This overcomes the barrier to starting. Engraining the habit that encodes the activity itself will then be much easier.
It might not be required that all the activities are related to each other. Maybe it would work to watch one episode of your favorite TV, and then do some boring workout, as long as you are very consistent about stopping and then doing the workout long enough for the habit to form.
With dancing and sports, this is relatively easy to form the habit. You are either gonna do the boring workout immediately after dancing or not at all because showering twice would be a waste of time (at least that is how I feel about it). Therefore I recommend looking for synergies like this in other habits.
I am quite dumb. I bought a Tensorbook for $4000 6 months ago. It has an RTX 3080 max-Q. That is why you would buy a Tensorbook. It has a powerful GPU with 15 TFLOPS and 16GB VRAM.
But now I can buy a P100 on eBay for less than 200 dollars from China, or a K80 for less than $100 (prices excluding import tax). The P100 has 16GB VRAM and 19 TFLOPS and much more memory bandwidth. The K80 has 24GB VRAM and 5 TFLOPS. Also, the Tensorbook often crashes, if I don’t suspend it in the air. My guess is that it can’t handle the heat under load. Ups!
It would have been much better to buy a laptop without GPU and just use cloud computing or even just google colab, and now that I am at a somewhat permanent location that already has a powerful tower computer, buying a cheap P100 seems like a good option. All this becomes even stupider if you consider that I only used the GPU for tens of hours.
Here Charles Sieg reports that Modafinil increases his creativity. Furthermore when he takes Modafinil for 3-4 days this creativity enhancement is amplified. Apparently, he had major creative breakthroughs on the 3rd and 4th day, which makes him think that this was not a placebo effect.
He also says that even though he took Modafinil for 8+ years, he did not develop tolerance to the point of not receiving major benefits. His strategy is to take it 3-4 days in a row and then abstain for a couple of days.
Writing well takes a lot of time and effort. I just realized that now. Before I was trying to rush everything because according to my model, it should not take that much time and effort to write something well. I think many of the things I was writing ended up a lot worse than they could have been.
Basically, exactly the same thing happened to me recently with programming. I was mostly writing programs that were completely horrible spaghetti code because I was just optimizing to get some specific functionality implemented as fast as possible. But then I realized how long it actually takes to write a good program.
Updating your model of “what it takes” to better match reality, seems to be extremely helpful. It feels like before I was not allowing myself to put in the appropriate amount of time and effort to hit my desired quality target. And the funny thing is that, at least with programming, it will actually take longer in terms of total time spent, to get some specific functionality implemented on average, if your code is a horrible mess, and has grown beyond a few hundred lines of code.
And what made me update my model is just to stop caring about completing as fast as possible. I just allowed myself to put in the time, and then I observed how much time and effort I needed to hit a specific quality target.
It seems like I had the dual problem of perfectionism. I expect that this is a common problem (at least for adults) when learning something new, and I expect realizing that this problem exists as you run into it, will lessen it’s grip on you.
I have been prescribed Pitolisant (sold as Wakix, Ozawade), a recent (FDA approved in August 2019) H3 receptor antagonist against excessive daytime sleepiness by treated sleep apnea. It works like this:
When Histamine binds to H1 and H2 receptors, it promotes wakefulness. When histamine binds to H3 auto receptors it primarily blocks the release of Histamine. It also has a weaker blocking effect on the release of other neurotransmitters. Therefore, blocking H3 receptors can increase Histamine levels in the brain, leading to increased activity on H1 and H2 receptors, which in turn leads to increased wakefulness.
I haven’t tried it yet but I found it interesting as it uses a method of action I did not know about. An advantage over other stimulants is that it does not raise blood pressure (at least that’s what my doctor told me, can’t seem to easily confirm with google).
Here is a template (feel free to use) that you might find useful as an introductory message if you find it hard to consider how your actions make other people feel:
Do you subscribe to Crooker’s rules? Did you notice that Eliezer sometimes seems inconsiderate of people’s emotions, when he just shoots down one (bad) alignment idea after the other? He just says things like “No, this does not work.” My guess is that there are some algorithms missing from his brain or are atrophied, just like for me. For me, it’s pretty hard to take into account how other people will feel when I say something. It’s just not something that comes naturally and I need to be very explicitly thinking about this in order to make what I say not come across as offensive.
Basically, I think it would be good if you model me as a person who is missing the hardware in his brain which is automatically inferring how I will make people feel with my actions. I need to repurpose some other machinery for this, which takes a lot more effort and is slower. Often people call this autism, but I think my description is more precise and useful for telling other people what is going on, such that they understand.
And it seems very clear that there is a big gap. For example, Buck once said that he does not like to shoot down the ideas of other people because he does not want them to feel bad. At that moment I realized that I could not remember that this thought ever occurred to me. It seemed very alien, but also obviously good. Of course, I don’t want to make people feel bad. But even the possibility of this happening was, I noticed, missing from my world model.
It would make things easier for me if I could not worry about this too much. If you subscribe to Crooker’s rules then I could optimize my messages only for content. For example, if you subscribe to Crooker’s rules then I could just not optimize my messages at all for sounding nice.
If you find that my mode of communication causes you emotional trouble, we could always revert back to me optimizing more for not sounding harsh.
Some harsh things I might do are:
I write a thousands-of-word document describing how you’re wrong on a particular topic, which makes it seem like I’m really critical of what you do and don’t think it’s good at all, when in fact I mean something more like, look here are some issues I think I discovered and I’m not even thinking about the implicit message that I send by sending a long document that just contains criticism.
I use phrases like <No/wrong...[Explanation]/This doesn’t make sense/This doesn’t work>
I am going to assume you subscribe to crooker’s rules. I am happy to with you.
I think this places a big burden on someone to read all this text. I think that it depends which space you are in, but for most spaces it’s typical to escalate to this kind of communication rather than start there and leave if people want.
Good point. Probably there is a one-paragraph version of this that would be sufficient. I think escalating can be fine, though I think it is always better to be explicit about it, and at least at some point go “Let’s do Crocker’s rules and its opt-out.” That makes it clear that opting out is an acceptable action. I think it’s also good to raise the awareness of optimizing the communication for usefulness. Sometimes I talk to people and then start out just saying nice nices of how good everything is that I am doing at a very superficial level. And that is not useful at all.
Many people do not think opting out is an acceptable action. That’s the problem here. There isn’t a perfect signal or secret code to smooth discourse at the right level.
You can say “Ouch that hurt me emotionally, I would like this to not happen again.” Then you can both think about how to prevent this in the future and change your behavior accordingly, such that you incrementally converge onto a good conversation norm. I think something like this is the right approach.
I have some reflections around this that you might, or might not find interesting. The reason I wanted to comment is that I wanted to write about some experiences in a fitting context, and this seemed a good match. Here goes.
My frame of thinking takes reference from MBTI, or more specific the concept of cognitive functions—or how I see it, small people in my brain, that live really different lives.
Optimizing for information is something I care about myself, and I relate it to my Ti (Introverted thinking), and since my partner has a lot of Fe (extroverted feeling), there are/have been a lot of ruffled feathers. Long story short, when I read people say that they “don’t want to sound harsh”, usually what I interpret that to mean is that they focus on Thinking (Cognitive functions), when the other person they are talking to is more Feeling (Cognitive functions).
In my experience, and since me and my partner introspect a lot, one thing that became quite clear to me is that I have “emotions” in my thinking function; they are just different. I will care about values like transparency, honesty, fairness and cooperation—And I perceive an increase in these values, I feel emotions like willingness, dedication, trustful and/or engaged—and when they are opposed or things go wrong, I feel disgruntled, entangled, discouraged and/or lost. And surprisingly, and uncomfortable, my ‘rational, thinking, masculine side’ was full of emotions—just not the kind of “emotions” that I am conditioned to describe as emotions/feelings.
What I also noticed more and more as time went by—that by not myself acknowledging, and by not getting recognition from my partner with regard to my emotions in my Thinking, I noticed that I felt hurt and dejected. These more intense feelings, I automatically tried to hide beneath technical, rational, meta and structured words and sentences, and to not feel them and recognize them.
Now, your case might be different, but I also wonder if culture plays a role in what “emotions” we see in others, and for many people here on LW, a forum where as far as I can remember the last “test” showed is inhabited by many INTP’s, don’t really get a lot of recognition for the kind of feelings they have—and might also reject the ‘logic’ of feelings themselves, as it (on the surface) seems to contradict the rationality of their beliefs.
My second point is in regard to “hurting the feelings of others” as opposed to “Trying to convey a message”. What our exercises together also showed me, was that my perception of Extroverted Feeling, what I regard as the “I feel hurt by words”-part, isn’t a function that is ‘simple’. The ability and complexity that this function can hold with regard to holding dualities and opposites, is just as ‘information efficient’ as my own.
Usually, the reason I would resort to “more thinking” in the face of “more emotion” was simply that I got overwhelmed. In the face of something that is really difficult or hard, I at least try to make it easier. Trying to deal with a tornado is much easier inside my rational fortress—but I’m not really fully challenging my inability to hold space for the chaos in the Fe space. Which relates to the last things you wrote, that I also just assume that my default state of mind is the “right one” for a specific situation, when in fact it is just my default one, not a conscious choice.
As far as I know this is the first comment I have made to you, so I hope it lands relatively well. I did read a little bit about you in your bio, and saw your photo, but that might not be enough to gauge correctly.
Do I understand correctly that you think I am ignoring my emotions and that this is a problem? I agree that it is terrible to ignore your emotions and I am trying to not do this. I definitely feel emotions and in my experience not acknowledging them makes things just a lot worse.
I can definitely feel very hurt when people say extremely negative critiques about something that I am saying. And I know that this can be pretty harmful because it uncontrollably activates some reinforcement mechanism in my brain changing me for the worse. At least I think very often for me it has been for the worse. So not being aware of this mechanism and how it interacts with emotion is not a good thing.
So I’m not sure what to take from this message as it seems like I already was aware of the problems you were pointing out. Of course, I think I’m not really as good as I could be at recognizing emotions and handling them correctly.
I’m a bit confused. Do you understand the concept of not having some hardware in your brain that other people have? Here is an interesting thing that happened to me when I was a child. Other people would sometimes bully me. However, I was unable to project a harmful intent onto their actions. And then the bullying didn’t work at all. Because I failed to recognize that a piece of language was supposed to hurt me, it didn’t. That is pretty funny I think.
I think the only way this can happen is if you’re just missing some functionality in your brain for understanding the actions, intentions, and emotions of other people. I think that is the case for me, But I am not sure if this is the case for you. I think this is a very important distinction.
thanks for you reply, and to answer the last part first—if you are referring to some specific function, than that might be the case, and some of what I say might not apply.
I’m not saying you are ignoring your emotions. The point I am trying to get across is how little awareness I, without missing that specific functionality you talk about, have of how emotions feel. Or even what kinds of emotions it is possible to feel. So even when we aren’t intentionally ignoring them, we might still be unable to see them. Similarly to how people that aren’t really familiar with birds can’t really differentiate between the numerous kinds or separate their calls. Moreover, what might also contribute to mask exploration and self-understanding, might be things like upbringing and culture, not inability, unwillingness or “not being emotional”.
My idea was that even if you are different, you might also have similar issues with awareness; that you also haven’t really delved into what you feel, and connected that to the stimulus that created it. If you are on the spectrum, I would assume that the responses and feedback you get are even less useful than what I have gotten. I mean, if you look at something like a chart of emotions, like this one from NVC, it at least became pretty apparent to me that my understanding of emotions was sorely lacking. One thing is to have heard the words, similar to have heard the different bird names, another is to with increasing accuracy pinpoint and differentiate them in the real world, or in this case, in my own body and mind.
And with regard to the bullying, I can see your point, and yes, I do recognize that there can be a fundamental difference between people. My point wasn’t to disregard that, or to not recognize your effort of self-understanding. My point was to maybe show that what can be an initial difference might increase in size from a lack of good feedback and understanding.
I’m not sure if that clarifies things for you. I wasn’t expecting to step on your toes somehow, but it seems I did… So ironically enough it seems we are playing out what you talked about, just inversely, where you seem to be the one being hurt by what I wrote, where my intentions weren’t really to disregard or not respect you, or to imply that you have to change or be different. I wrote about it as it seemed to fit with some experiences I have myself, and so I wrote a reply to you.
...where you seem to be the one being hurt by what I wrote…
LOL, what makes you think that? I experienced no negative emotions while engaging with your content. At least that’s what it feels like retrospectively. Maybe I failed to see some subtle ones, but certainly, there were no strong/medium negative feelings. I was simply trying to understand what you were saying. In fact, I remember thinking something like “Hmm interesting let’s see if this person says stuff about how I am failing such that I can do better”, and that was a thought with positive valence.
I think now I understand better. My model this far has been that in the past I have been suppressing my emotions. That definitely happened. But now I have updated my model so that I probably very often was unaware of them. Being unaware and suppressing emotions seems different and independent. I can be angry and not aware that I am angry, not noticing how it changes my behavior. That is different from suppressing the anger, trying to not have it influence your behavior. Though I am pretty sure that you can suppress emotions without being aware of them. I think that is probably what happened most of the time.
To be clear I am not saying that the part of my brain that feels my emotions is atrophied. I am not sure about this. It’s hard to say not having any reference frame (for interpreting the emotions of others you can get a reference frame).
Actually, now realize that a major part of how I realized that I am missing certain brain functions is that other autistic people were hunting me unintentionally because they just did not realize the emotions they were creating in me. And then I realized that I was doing the same. But this I think really did not happen here. When these autistic people hurt me on accident, it was so over the top what they were saying that people normally laugh if I tell them what they said.
It is good to hear you say that you don’t experience it that way, and I may be overly focused on many subtle and incredible minor emotional nuances, many of which probably aren’t really relevant in our specific interaction anyway. Good to know that those are overshadowed by the positive valence, so I’ll just focus less on that.
Yes, I agree with you on the differentiation. Especially to me, the tell-tale signs have been minor changes in behavior, more than distinct or detectable emotional sensations.
If I follow the logic I have proposed so far, and since you can feel emotions, are you sure you don’t have an emotional reference frame for other people—or are you only sure that your reference frame is wholly different from non-autistic people? To me at least there is a big difference between feeling Nothing at all, and feeling Something, but it ‘seems’ useless when it comes to predicting and understanding people. If what you feel is in the latter category, I wonder what you sense or feel, as it might be a social emotion. I’m not asking you to tell me, but I just believe it might potentially be relevant in a social context.
Again, I’m not saying you have a hidden superpower or anything, I just wonder if specific kinds of awareness of emotions might give you a different angle with which to react and understand others and yourself—and that this might also be quite interesting for a willing recipient to connect with.
I mean, if it is related to mirroring or something, I guess what you feel might be unrelated to what is happening with/to the other person—but I do not want to go there yet, at least if you aren’t sure about it.
Ah, I have two major experiences with autism. One was as a support person for an autistic person, but they also had some developmental issues, so there was that as well. I remember feeling as some sort of fixation-point, that they kind of couldn’t maneuver in the world without me. They felt more like a chick dependent on their mother, but as this person was older than me and pretty strong, I did feel a bit anxious that they didn’t understand ‘No’ or ‘Stop’. They only understood being physically taught things by repeated example, to a degree.
The other experience is meeting a young youth sitting alone on a bench outside a church. Not anything special by itself, were it not for the fact that it was getting late at night on the weekends and in a big city. I remember sitting down and saying hello, and kind of just trying to figure out what was going on. Simple questions, which were met initially with short responses, and to me red flags about something being wrong. So I asked more directly what was up, not sure how, but then they suddenly gave me this in depth sitrep of what had happened at home, how they got angry, left the home and came here… I noticed how open they were, the way you talk to close friends, not strangers you just met. The kind of personal and private detailed information you share with close ones, not people you just met. Well, to be on the safe side I decided to accompany them home to where they lived—relieved parents, even drove me home. Later I got a call from that person, asking me if I wanted to step in as their “support person”, as he was sick or something. I said yes, and my experience those hours was that they couldn’t really stop talking about what they were interested in, but I mean that isn’t really unnatural and I found the level of detail quite interesting. All youths have quirks of some kind, and so they weren’t really a person that was hard to be with. However, it wasn’t like they took turns with regard to conversation, and so I noticed that they would answer questions, but not really interact with me in the same way. Again, it isn’t like it is totally uncommon to have youth ignore you and rant on and on about their interests, but they did not read social cues the way I am used to. So I could understand how the people around them, in school especially, didn’t really have the patience or lacked the skill to work with the differences, and so they felt really alone without friends in School.
I mean, my understanding is that understanding emotions also is a social process—but even though nobody would really think I wasn’t emotive, as I am decently sensitive and read cues well, I am learning a lot of emotions I am/were unaware of. I mean, it is probably pretty advanced compared to the norm, but some of it is basic, it was just mislabeled. So I wonder if the same might be the case for you, or if it might be a very different situation.
You are the expert when it comes to you, so even though I hope to write something that fits, it might not be quite right for you—but I do hope it might be useful nevertheless, as it is to me.
Yes, I would, because then I would need to use that social inference engine that is <atrophied/not exsistant> in my brain. I don’t remember what they said, but I don’t think it was very ambiguous to anyone but me.
To be productive, sit down in a comfortable zero-gravity armair and do nothing. You are not allowed to watch YouTube videos or browse social media. Just relax. Do this until you naturally want to start to work. It is important that you are comfortable.
This seems to be surprisingly effective (haven’t done any rigorous evaluation). Ideally have a laptop together with AR goggles within arms reach without getting up such that you can just lay in the armchair and start to work, if necessary.
I have found that even when I am very tired I can still work when laying in a comfortable armchair. It is a lot harder to bring myself to go to my standing desk (though me using an IKEA shelf as a stool might have something to do with this).
Sometimes I tell somebody about a problem in our relation. An answer I often hear is an honest “What do you want me to do”. This is probably well-intentioned most of the time, but I really don’t like this answer. I much prefer when the other person starts to use their cognitive resources to optimize the problem to smithereens. “What do you want me to do” is the lazy answer. It is the answer you give to be agreeable. It makes it seem like you don’t care about the problem, or at least not enough for you to invest effort into fixing it.
This is highly dependent on the relation and the problem. If you don’t have a ready answer to “what should I do”, then you probably should be asking and discussion whether and what kind of problem there is, prior to expecting someone to put a bunch of thought into your short description.
Yes. I was thinking about the scenario where I make it absolutely clear that there is a problem. I feel that should be enough reason for them to start optimizing, and not take my inability to provide a policy for them to execute as an excuse to ignore the problem. Though I probably could describe the problem better. See also this.
Fair enough—those details matter in human relationships, and it’s probably not possible to abstract/generalize enough for you to be comfortable posting while still getting useful feedback in this forum.
I do worry that a lot of LW readers’ model of society and relationships is more symmetrical in goals and attitudes than is justified by experience and observation. Other-optimization (Trying to make someone more effective in satisfying your goals) is not pretty.
In this case, I mean that I’d be kind of shocked if most humans, even close friends or romantic partners, react to “here’s a problem I see in our relationship” with the openness and vigor you seem to expect.
In general, I mean there’s often a denial of the fact that most people are more selfish than we want to project.
Do you mean “What do you want me to do” in the tone of voice that means “There’s nothing to do here, bugger off”? Or do you mean “What do you want me to do?” in the tone of voice that means “I’m ready to help with this. What should I do to remedy the problem?”?
I mean the situation where they are serious. If I would tell them a solution they would consider it and might even implement it. But they are not pointing their consequentialist reasoning skills toward the problem to crush it. See also this comment.
“What do you want me to do?” prods you to give concrete examples of what a solution looks like. That can reveal aspects of the problem you didn’t realize, and implicitly shows people an model of the problem. Which is crucial, because communicating is hard, even with people you’re close to. Especially if they haven’t didn’t notice the problem themselves.
I have not communicated the subtleties here. I was mainly complaining about a situation where the other person is not making the mental move of actually trying to solve the problem. When I don’t have an answer to “What do you want me to do?”, they see it as an excuse, to do nothing and move on. Your interpretation presupposes that they are trying to solve the problem. If somebody would do what you are describing, they would do well to state that explicitly.
“What do you want me to do?” is much worse than “What do you want me to do? I am asking because maybe you have already thought of a solution, and it is just a matter of you telling me how to implement it. Then I can go ahead and implement it if I also think it is a good solution. If not that is fine too. In this case, let’s try to solve the problem together. Let’s first get clearer about what a solution would look like. What are the relevant properties a solution should have, and what is weighting on these properties? …”
Solomonoff induction does not talk about how to make optimal tradeoffs in the programs that serve as the hypothesis.
Imagine you want to describe a part of the world that contains a gun. Solomonoff induction would converge on finding the program that perfectly predicts all the possible observations. So this program would be able to predict what sort of observations would I make after I stuff a banana into the muzzle and fire it. But knowing how the banana was splattered around is not the most useful fact about the gun. It is more useful to know that a gun can be used to kill humans and animals. So if you want to store your world model in only n bits of memory, you need to decide which information to put in. And this matters because some information is much more useful than others. So how can we find the world model that gives you the most power over the world, i.e. letting you reach the greatest number of states? Humans have the ability to judge the usefulness of information. You can ask yourself, what sort of knowledge would be most useful for you to learn? Or, What knowledge would be most bad to forget?
Where do you even put the 10^100 objects you’re iterating through? What made you pick 10^100 as the scale of difficulty? I mean, even though you’ve ignored parallelism and the sheer number of processing pipelines available to simultaneously handle things, that’s only a dozen orders of magnitude, not 100. Exponents go up fast.
So, to answer your title, “no, I cannot”. Fortunately, I CAN abstract and model that many objects, if they’re similar in most of the ways that matter to me. The earth, for instance, has about 10^50 atoms (note: that’s not half the size of your example, it’s 1/10^50 the size). And I can make a fair number of predictions about it. And there’s a LOT of behavior I can’t.
Yes, abstraction is the right thing to think about. That is the context in which I was considering this computation. In this post I describe a sort of planning abstraction that you can do if you have an extremely regular environment. It does not yet talk about how to store this environment, but you are right that this can of course also be done similarly efficiently.
Do you need to store information about each object? If so, do you need to do so before or after the operation.
If you need to store information about each object before processing (let’s say 1 bit per object, for simplicity), the Landauer limit says you need 10100bits×2.6×10−23Jbit×1kg9×1016J≈3×1060kg of mass to store that information (at the current cosmic microwave background temperature of 2.7ºK). That’s about a factor of 107 more than the mass of the observable universe, so the current universe could not even store 10100 bits of information for you to perform your operation on in the first place.
I think if you’re willing to use all the mass in the universe and wait a trillion billion years or so for the universe to cool off, you might be able store one bit of output per operation for 10100 operations, assuming you can do some sort of clever reversible computing thing to make the operations themselves approximately free.
Is there some specific computation you are thinking of that is useful if you can do it 10100 times but not useful if you can only do it 1050 times?
In this post, I describe a toy setup, where I have a graph of 10100 vertices. I would like to compute for any two vertices A and B how to get from A to B, i.e. compute a path from A to B.
The point is that if we have a very special graph structure we can do this very efficiently. O(n) where n is the plan length.
In that post, you say that you have a graph of 10100 vertices with a particular structure. In that scenario, where is that structured graph of 10100 vertices coming from? Presumably there’s some way you know the graph looks like this
rather than looking like this
If you know that your graph is a nice sparse graph that has lots of symmetries, you can take advantage of those properties to skip redundant parts of the computation (and when each of your 10100 nodes has at most 100 inbound edges and 100 outbound edges, then you only have on the order of a trillion distinct nodes (if we consider e.g.(0, 0, 0, ..., 0, 0, 1) to be identical to (0, 0, 0, ..., 0, 1, 0, ..., 0, 0, 0)).
It’s probably worth looking at the process which is generating this graph, and figuring out if we can translate the output of that process directly to a coordinate in our 100-dimensional space without going through the “translate the output to a graph, and then embed that graph” intermediate step.
I don’t get distracted when talking to people. I hypothesise that this is because as long as I am actively articulating a stream of thought out loud, the default mode network will be suppressed, making it easy to not get derailed.
So even if IA does not say anything, just me talking about some specific topic continuously, would make it easier for IA to say something, because the default mode network suppression will not immediately vanish.
When thinking on my own or talking to IA, the stream of thoughts is shorter, and there are a lot of pauses. Usually, I don’t even get to the point where I would articulate a complex stream of thought. Instead, we are at the level of “Look there is some mud there, let’s not step into that”, or “We can do this”. That really does seem very similar to most of the idle chatter that the default mode network would produce when I am just thinking on my own.
Once I get to the point where I am having an engaging discussion with IA, it is actually pretty easy not to get distracted. It’s probably still easier to get distracted with IA, because when I am talking to another person, they could notice that I am lost in thought, but I myself (or IA) would not be able to notice as easily.
Capturing IA’s Thoughts
One reason why I don’t do research with IA might be that I fear that I will not be able to capture any important thoughts that I have. However, using the audio recorder tool on the walk today seemed to really fix most of the issue.
Maybe in my mind so far I thought that because I can’t record IA when she is talking to me, it would be bad to think about research. But this now seems very wrong. It is true that I can’t create a video with her in it like I do with other people. But these videos are not the thing that is most useful. The actually useful thing is where I am distilling the insight that I have into some text document.
But this is something that I can totally do when talking to IA. Like I did with the audio recorder today. It seemed that making the audio recording made it also easier to talk to IA. Probably because when making the recording I would naturally be suppressing the default mode network very strongly. This effect then probably did not vanish immediately.
Writing
In fact, it seems like this would work very well with IA because I don’t need to think about the problem of what the other person could do while I write. In the worst case, IA is simply not run. At best, we could write the text together.
Writing together would seem to work unusually well because IA does have insight into the things that I am thinking while I am writing, which is not something that other people could easily get.
And I haven’t really explored all the possibilities here. Another one would be to have IA read out loud my writing and give me feedback.
Here is a song a friend made based on this post I wrote very long ago about how to eat a rock. He using suno. I thought it’s quite good, but that might just be me.
So, what happens when we figure out how to align language models? By then the state-of-the-art will involve having multi-modal models. Assume we have figured out how to make steganography not a problem in chain of thoughts reasoning. But maybe that is now kind of useless because there are so many more channels that could be stenographically exploited. Or maybe some completely different problem that we haven’t even thought about yet will come up.
Imagine all possible programs that implement a particular functionality. Imagine we have a neural network that implements this functionality. If we have perfect mechanistic interpretability we can extract the algorithms of a neural network that implements that functionality. But what kind of program do we get? Maybe there are multiple qualitatively different algorithms that all implement the functionality. Some of them would be much easier to understand for human. The algorithm the neural network finds might not be that program that is easiest to understand to a human.
Do you think this might be a significant obstacle in the future? For example, do you think it is likely that the algorithms inside of an AGI-neural-network built by SGD will be so complicated that they are not humanly understandable, because of their sheer size? I am especially thinking about the case where an algorithm exists that is just as capable but understandable.
This seems more likely if we end up with an AGI-neural-network that mushes together the world model and the algorithms that use the world model (e.g. update it, use it to plan), such that there are no clear boundaries. If the AGI is really good at manipulating the world, it probably has a pretty good model of the world. As the world contains a lot of algorithmic information, the AGI’s model of the world will be complex. If the system is mushed we might need to understand all that complexity to an intractable extent.
I expect that if you can have a system where the world model is factored out into its own module, it will be easier to handle the complexity in the world because then we can infer properties of the world model based on the algorithms that construct and use it. I expect the world model will still be very complex, and the algorithms that construct and use it will be simple. Therefore infering properties of the world model based on these simple algorithms might still be tractable.
Do you think this problem is likely to show up in the future?
Upon reflection, I’m unsure what you mean by the program being simpler. What is your preferred way to represent modular addition? I could of course write down 20 % 11. I know exactly what that means. But first of all, this is not an algorithm. It just talks about the concept of modular arithmetic without specifying how to compute it. And understanding the concept at a high level is of course easier than representing the entire algorithm all at once in my mind.
I guess the normal way you would compute the modulo would be to take a number a and then subtract b from it until what is left is smaller than b. What is left is then the modulo. Ok, that seems simpler so never mind.
It does seem an important distinction to think about the way we represent a concept and the actual computation associated with obtaining the results associated with that concept. I got confused because I was conflating these two things.
I feel sceptical about interpretability primarily because imagine that you have neural network that does useful superintelligent things because “cares about humans”. We have found Fourier transform in modular addition network because we already knew what Fourier transform is. But we have veeeery limited understanding of what “caring about humans” is from the math position.
I just had an interesting thought. How would you show somebody that you love them in the transhumanist future? Well, one way would be to reveal to one another, in a verifiable way, what kinds of algorithms you are made of.
E.g. you could reveal exactly how your decision algorithm works and how it will take the others preferences into account. You could also show somebody that in the past you self modified to have certain preferences, the others like.
You could also show them exactly how the algorithm works that makes you feel good when you see and interact with them. Then you can reveal how this creates a positive experience and how that positivity factors into a reinforcement algorithm that makes you like them even more.
I just rewatched a video I made about a VR experience I made 6 years ago with a bunch of other people. You fly through a 3D slice of a 4D fractal. The beginning has the most interesting morphing geometry.
We made this in only 3 or 4 weeks IIRC. Pretty crazy. I needed to implement raymarching in Unity, which then effectively replaced the entire default rendering pipeline. It was a lot easier than it sounds though, as we did not need to have any interactions with the environment (which would be basically impossible, or at least I don’t know how to do it).
Whatever you did today, last week, or any other time. However far you got on anything. I hope you realize that every new moment is an opportunity. An opportunity to make a choice. Right now is always the best time to start doing whatever is optimal, right now.
I did an ADHD test in Germany. They asked me questions at 1:30 and then said I have ADHD, and no further testing was required. If the interview had not been conclusive they would have done some other tests. They ask about symptoms like “Can you not sit still”, “Do you forget appointments” and things like that.
The most interesting part was the preinterview part.
Scott writes here on how psychiatrists are the gatekeepers to Adderall:
Aren’t psychiatrists creepy wizards who can see through your deceptions? There are people like that. They’re called forensicists, they have special training in dealing with patients who might be lying to them, and they tend to get brought in for things like evaluating a murderer pleading the insanity defense. They have a toolbox of fascinating and frequently hilarious techniques to ascertain the truth, and they’re really good at their jobs.
They did pull one of these “hilarious techniques” on me. They ask me “When some thought comes up that is not about the thing that you are trying to do are you annoyed?” I said “No, it is actually rather the opposite. The thoughts seem very flashy and good to think. I am not annoyed at all.” Then they said “Ah, that is good. I needed to know that”, and then they wrote something down.
Because I have ADHD it is just clear that you would really not be annoyed by your distracting thoughts, but if you don’t have ADHD it would probably seem more sensical that you would be annoyed. The problem with ADHD is that there isn’t enough reflection going on, about if the new thought is good to follow. So you can’t get annoyed by the fact that you are thinking random thinkings.
So basically they asked me if I had a symptom which is the opposite of what a person with ADHD would experience. Had I said that I would be annoyed by my own thoughts, they would probably not have bothered with the interview.
I am confused about why people are building systems in the current machine learning paradigm and trying to make them more and more capable, without realizing that this can be dangerous. I basically think the arguments that Eliezer is making seem likely and should be taken seriously, but I expect most of the people working on bleeding edge systems don’t even know these arguments.
For example, the argument that if you have a training process that trains a system to perform well on a text prediction task, then that doesn’t necessarily mean that the resulting system will “just do text prediction”. It seems quite likely to me that, as Eliezer says, intelligence is just a useful thing to have in order to perform better on the task of predicting text from the Internet. Therefore, at some point, as the systems become more and more capable, we should expect that through this optimization pressure, general intelligence will arise even for a task that seems as energetic as predicting text.
How much permission do AI developers need to get from society before irrevocably changing society?
Right now, to me it seems, like people are steering straight towards the doom. And nobody really ever approved this. But the problem is that most people, even the people doing this, don’t realize that that’s what they’re doing. At least that’s how it seems from my perspective.
Does progress always demand heterodox strategies?
I found it weird that you thought it would be weird if we got continuous learning systems. Because it seems very likely to me that if we get really capable systems at some point, will do active learning. Clearly, gradient descent is a pretty dumb optimization process that you can improve upon. Maybe we can get to the point without continuous learning where the systems improve themselves. This could then actually also be seen as a form of active learning. But at that point we the systems can improve themselves better than humans can are probably dead very very quickly.
Related to this, the thing I am working on is trying to figure out how we can do learning without using SGD. The hope is that if we find an algorithm that can learn, which we can just write down explicitly and understand, then that would make this algorithm pretty straightforward to align, especially if during the design process of the algorithm you build it such that it would be easy to align already.
No español. Водка, водка! Whisperはかっこいいよ。ウィスパーは日本語をわかります。Whisper kann außerdem auch einfach Deutsch übersetzen. Zu bemerken ist hier, dass ich überhaupt nichts einstelle, sondern einfach genau das selbe Programm für alles benutze.
Of course, I can also speak English. I think using Whisper is probably good for speeding up writing. 転生したらスライム叩けんはいいですよ
I don’t expect that 6 months would nearly be enough time to understand our current systems well enough to make them aligned. However, I do support this, and did sign the pledge, as getting everybody to stop training AI systems more powerful than GPT-4 for 6 months, would be a huge step forward in terms of coordination. I don’t expect this to happen. I don’t expect that OpenAI will give up its lead here.
Right now I am trying to better understand future AI systems, by first thinking about what sort of abilities I expect every system of high cognitive power will have, and second, trying to find a concrete practical implementation of this ability. One ability is building a model of the world, that has certain desiderata. For example, if we have multiple agents in the world, then we can factor the world, such that we can build just one model of the agent, and point to this model in our description of the world two times. This is something that Solomonoff induction can also do. I am interested in constraining the world model, such that we always get out a world model that has a similar structure, such that the world model becomes more interpretable. I.e. I try to find a way for building a world model, where we mainly need to understand the world model’s content, as it is easy to understand how the content is organized.
Apparently a heuristic funders use, is that the best startup founders are those that have done the most startups in the past, irrespective of if they failed or succeeded.
If this is mapping reality well, it might be because most startups fail. So even a person that is very competent at running a startup is expected to fail a couple of times. And having run multiple startups either indicates that certain skills have been acquired, or that the person has some desirable attributes:
Determination is important, so people who give up after failing will be filtered.
If somebody convinced other grantmakers in the past, that is an indicator that they are intelligent enough to generate a coherent-looking proposal.
They will have gathered a lot of experience running companies, which seems to be an important skill that I would expect is hard to impossible to get in other ways, to the same extent.
I was listening to a stoic lesson on Waking up. It was about:
Focus on being a participant in your life during the day.
But in a low-grade manner observe yourself during the day.
Play the role of your own critic in the evening (e.g. do a bedtime reflection).
I’ve been doing a daily reflection for a long time. Though I have not thought about the reflection as providing constructive criticism. This framing seems much better than my previous one. Before I mainly wrote down all the things that I did during the day, and how they differed from my plan for the day. This is not bad, insofar as it helps you to make improvements to your life. I do think there is some merit in just doing this, but the main benefit is, that it makes it easier to think about concrete plans for improvement. I understand constructive criticism as either providing information that is relevant to come up with plans for improving yourself, or with suggestions for such plans.
Also, this framing makes it more evident that the goal is on improving yourself. Overeating, behaving differently from how I think I should act in some social circumstances, not going to bed on time, or eating unhealthy food, are more obvious to think about. The objective is to come up with plans for improving yourself. Before it felt more like I was following a rigid procedure of describing my day.
Look for things that were not good for 3 minutes, and then come up with a solution to the most important problem.
This seems to be by far the best plan. You can’t train many new habits at the same time. Instead, you should focus on 1-3, until you got them down. Habits are involved in many improvement plans if not all. Most improvements are about training yourself to do the right thing reflexively.
Also, reflecting and coming up with plans can take quite a lot of time. Before having the framing of giving myself constructive criticism, I did not end up with concrete improvement plans that often. Part of the reason is that writing out all the things I did and analyzing how I did not achieve my goals, takes a lot of time. That time is better spent actually thinking about concrete plans. By bounding the amount of time you have for identifying a problem, you force yourself to spend more time devising concrete improvement plans. The most important problems will probably be salient and pop out in the 3 minutes.
I have not tried this strategy in this setting yet, but I used it in others, where it worked very well.
Many people match “pivotal act” to “deploy AGI to take over the world”, and ignore the underlying problem of preventing others from deploying misaligned AGI.
I have talked to two high-profile alignment/alignment-adjacent people who actively dislike pivotal acts.
I think both have contorted notions of what a pivotal act is about. They focused on how dangerous it would be to let a powerful AI system loose on the world.
However, a pivotal act is about this. So an act that ensures that misaligned AGI will not be built is a pivotal act. Many such acts might look like taking over the world. But this is not a core feature of a pivotal act. If I could prevent all people from deploying misaligned AGI, by eating 10 bananas in sixty seconds, then that would count as a pivotal act!
The two researchers were not talking about how to prevent misaligned AGI from being built at all. So I worry that they are ignoring this problem in their solution proposals. It seems “pivotal act” has become a term with bad connotations. When hearing “pivotal act”, these people pattern match to “deploy AGI to take over the world”, and ignore the underlying problem of preventing others from deploying misaligned AGI.
I expect there are a lot more people who fall into this trap. One of the people was giving a talk and this came up briefly. Other people seemed to be on board with what was said. At least nobody objected, except me.
Someone told me that they were feeling disgusted by the view of trying to optimize for specific things, using specific objectives. This is what I wrote to them:
That feeling of being disgusted is actually some form of optimization itself. Disgust is a feeling that is utilized for many things, that we perceive as negative. It was probably easier for evolution to rewire when to feel disgusted, instead of creating a new feeling. The point is that that feeling that arises is supposed to change your behavior steering you in certain directions. I.e. it redirects what you are optimizing for. For example, it could make you think about why trying to optimize for things directly using explicit objectives is actually a bad thing. But the value judgment comes first. You first feel disgusted, and then you try to combat in some way the thing that you are disgusted by and try to come up with reasons why it is bad. So it is ironic that one can feel disgusted at optimization when feeling disgusted is part of an optimization process itself.
We were talking about maximizing positive and minimizing negative conscious experiences. I guess with the implicit assumption that we could find some specification of this objective that we would find satisfactory (one that would not have unintended consequences when implemented).
It’s understandable to feel disgust at some visible optimization processes, while not feeling disgust at others, especially ones that aren’t perceived as intrusive or overbearing. And that could easily lead to disgust at the INTENT to optimize in simple/legible ways, without as much disgust for complex equilibrium-based optimizations that don’t have human design behind them.
Yes. There are lots of optimization processes built into us humans, but they feel natural to us, or we simply don’t notice them. Stating something that you want to optimize for, especially if it is something that seems to impose itself on the entire structure of the universe, is not natural for humans. And that goal, if implemented would restrict the individual’s freedoms. And that humans really don’t like.
I think this all makes sense when you are trying to live together in a society, but I am not sure if we should blindly extrapolate these intuitions to determine what we want in the far future.
I am not sure if we should blindly extrapolate these intuitions to determine what we want in the far future.
I’m pretty sure we shouldn’t. Note that “blindly” is a pretty biased way to describe something if you’re not trying to skew the discussion. I’m pretty sure we shouldn’t even knowingly and carefully extrapolate these intuitions terribly far into the future. I’m not sure whether we have a choice, though—it seems believable that a pure laissez-faire attitude toward future values leads to dystopia or extinction.
Sometimes people seem to say “fuk it” towards some particular thing. I think this is a way to justify one’s intuitions. You intuitively feel like you should not care about something, but you actually can’t put your intuition into words. Except you can say “fuk it” to convey your conclusion, without any justification. “Because it’s cool” is similar.
You have a system, that can predict perfectly what you will do in the future. It presents you with two opaque boxes. If you take both boxes, then it will place in one box 10$ and in the other 0$. If you will take only one box, then it will place in one box 10$ and in the other 1,000,000$. The system does not use its predictive power to predict which box you will choose, but only to determine if you choose one or two boxes. It uses a random number generator to determine where to place which amount of dollars.
This is a modified version of Newcomb’s problem.
Imagine that you are an agent that can reliably pre-commit to an action. Now imagine you pre-commit to taking only one box in such a way, that it makes it impossible for you to not uphold that commitment. Now if you choose a box, and get 10$, you know that the other box contains 1,000,000$ for sure.
The interesting thing is that you can end up in a scenario where you actually know that the other box contains 1,000,000$ for sure. The one that you did not pick. Although you can’t take it because of the pre-commitment mechanism. And this pre-commitment mechanism is the only thing that prevents you from taking it. The thing that I found interesting is that such a situation can arise.
You have a system, that can predict perfectly what you will do in the future.
In fact, I do not. This (like Newcomb) doesn’t tell me anything about the world.
Also of course there is no system in reality that can predict you perfectly, but this is about an idealised scenario that is relevant because there are systems that can predict you with more than 50% accuracy.
Although you can’t take it because of the pre-commitment mechanism.
This is a crux for me. In such worlds where this prediction is possible, you can no longer say “because of” and really know that’s true. I suspect the precommittment mechanism is the way you KNOW that you can’t take the box, but it’s not why you can’t take the box.
I don’t really get that. For example, you could put a cryptographic lock on the box (let’s assume there is no way around it without the key), and then throw away the key. It seems that now you actually are not able to access the box, because you do not have the key. And you can also at the same time know that this is the case.
Sure, there are any number of commitment mechanisms which would be hard (or NP-hard) to bypass. If the prediction and box-content selection was performed by Omega based on that cause, then fine. If instead, it was based on a more complete modeling of the universe, REGARDLESS of whether the visible mechanism “could” be bypassed, then there are other causes than that mechanism.
There could be but there does not need to be, I would say. Or maybe I really do not get what you are talking about. It could really be that if the cryptographic lock was not in place, that then you could take the box, and there is nothing else that prevents you from doing this. I guess I have an implicit model where I look at the world from a cartesian perspective. So is what you’re saying about counterfactuals, and that I am using them in a way that is not valid, and that I do not acknowledge this?
I think my main point is that “because” is a tricky word to use normally, and gets downright weird in a universe that includes Omega levels of predictions about actions that feel “free” from the agent.
If Omega made the prediction, that means Omega sees the actual future, regardless of causality or intent or agent-visible commitment mechanisms.
Hypothesis: There are policies that are good at steering the world according to arbitrary objectives, that have low Kolmogorov complexity.
It is systems that implement these policies efficiently that we should be scared of, as systems that implement policies without low Kolmogorov complexity would be computationally intractable, and therefore we can only end up with systems that are approximating these policies. Therefore these systems would not actually be that good at steering the world according to arbitrary objectives. Shallow pattern recognition objects are of this form.
Systems that don’t manage to implement the policy efficiently would probably mostly not be computationally tractable (every policy can be represented with a lookup table which definitely would be computationally intractable for the real world). Every program that can be practically run that implements the policy would basically be just as dangerous as the shortest program encoding the policy.
I have been taking bupropion for two weeks now. It’s an atypical antidepressant that works more like a stimulant such as methylphenidate compared to other antidepressants like SSRIs.
So far my experience has been very positive. Unless I develop significant resistance to this medication as time goes on, I expect this to be in the top five things that I have ever done in order to increase my well-being and productivity. It does not have any annoying side effects for me. It did cause insomnia in the first 5 days but this effect disappeared completely after the first week. It was also very easy and fast to get a prescription (in Germany). It’s not available in the UK or Australia iirc.
Therefore I tentatively recommend if you are even slightly depressed sometimes, that you read this document.
For me it was especially useful because it helped in 3 ways:
Make me less depressed (works very well for this. That is what it is for what it is prescribed for after all)
It makes me less fatigued (I had some chronic fatigue before. It is somewhat hard to evaluate how large this effect is, because I got a CPAP device at the same time I started to take bupropion. But there seems to be a noticeable difference before and after I take the bupropion.)
It slightly lessens ADHD symptoms (this is mainly useful for me right now because it takes forever to get a prescription for ADHD medication unless I would put in a lot more time into optimizing to get one faster)
It might even make sense to think about this if you are experiencing any subset of these problems.
Heads up that for many people the first few weeks are the best they ever get on wellbutrin, and it will eventually settle at somewhere like 70% of that peak. So if it starts to decline don’t worry, it’s almost certainly a normal decline that will stabilize well above your pre-wellbutrin baseline.
I highly recommend trying to get a prescription for something like adderall (or dextroamphetamine, lisdexamphetamine) if your doctor is willing to diagnose you with ADHD. Just go off it if it doesn’t work, but it seems likely that it will given your response to bupropion. Some vague reasons for recommending it are:
Amphetamines affects dopamine (& norepinephrine) via more than just reuptake-inhibition. I’m not sure yet which mechanisms drive desensitization, it just seems tentatively better to spread the attack vectors out.
I’ve mostly forgot the reasons I suggest amphetamines over methylphenidate, but at least it has a stronger effect on egosyntonic behaviour (/executive function or whatever you want to call it) than bupropion.
Furthermore, if you’re on amphetamines/methylphenidate, I would recommend sort of using it strategically. I only take them on days I know I plan to be productive, and have hope that they enable me to be productive. If I ever take them on a day I fail to motivate myself, it weakens the semiotic/narrative signal for my brain to switch into a mode where it expects productivity & silences competing motivations. Plus, if I know I mostly won’t be productive for a while (e.g. vacation or something), I go off them to reset desensitisation (usually resets a long way within a week it seems).
I’ve been on lisdexamphetamine for 1.5 years, and they still produce a very clear effect. I’ve had depression and, turns out, ADHD, for most of my life. People who have no dysregulation of dopamine will probably have negative effect from too much upregulation (e.g. reduced mental noise/creativity, inability to zoom out from activities and reprioritise).
I watched a video where a doctor said that ADHD does not give you any benefit. I am a lot more creative than other people I think. Specifically a lot more creative than people who are as intelligent as I am. To me, it is unclear if that is not tightly linked to ADHD.
As you mention that stimulants can reduce “mental noise/creativity” I am curious what your experience is with this.
To be clear I think making your mind less noisy and improving executive function is a very very useful tool. But maybe it is a mistake to use amphetamines as the main signal for being productive. Maybe it would be better to have some days where you are productive off amphetamines because that might allow you to do qualitatively different work. E.g. do some ideation and exploration, and then use the amphetamines to dive deeper into what seems promising.
Having read a few of your posts, I think you’re correct about this. I believe in your general approach!
When I first started taking them, it revealed to me that I’d never known what it felt like to be able to think a thought through. Metaphorically, I imagine it sorta like being born with COPD and never realising what it feels like to fill my lungs with air. But I’ve probably always had a severe deficiency of whatever the stimulants are correcting for; and others who’re doing just fine on that front may not share my experience.
I take stimulants in the morning, and I’m soon enthusiastic about thinking deeply about ideas. I become more creative because the relevant threads-of-thought have some room to build upon themselves, probably because my mind is now able to mute the noise and non-relevant threads. When on stimulants, I’m much more likely to get lost down rabbit-holes during research, and often don’t catch myself before hours have passed. The lack of oomph I feel when off stimulants helps me prioritise only the most essential bits, and it’s easier to not overdo stuff—though mostly by virtue of being less capable of doing stuff.
Slightly relevant fun RCTs:
Alcohol concentration (sorta the opposite of stims of you squint) of 0.069-0.075 BAC seems to enhance performance on Remote-Association Tests (ie semantic metaphors)
“On average, intoxicated participants solved significantly more RAT problems (M = .58, SD = .13) than their sober counterparts (M = .42, SD = .16), t(38) = 3.43, p = .001, d = 1.08. Interestingly, this increase in solution success was accompanied by a decrease in time to correct solution for intoxicated individuals (M = 11.54 s, SD = 3.75) compared to sober controls (M=15.24s, SD =5.57), t(38) = 2.47, p = .02, d = .78.”
Sci-Hub | Uncorking the muse: Alcohol intoxication facilitates creative problem solving. Consciousness and Cognition, 21(1), 487–493 | 10.1016/j.concog.2012.01.002
Subjects who got RAT questions correct while intoxicated also reported feeling like their solution arrived “all at once” and were “more like insights” as opposed to deliberate/analytical.
Sci-Hub | Inverted-U–Shaped Dopamine Actions on Human Working Memory and Cognitive Control. Biological Psychiatry, 69(12), e113–e125 | 10.1016/j.biopsych.2011.03.028
“Inverted U-shape” referring to the idea that too much dopamine is detrimental to performance.
That is very interesting. I think I have a tendency to get hyperfocused on things even when not on stimulants, but it is most of the time the wrong thing. E.g. once I read the entire Computer Craft Wiki for 2-3 days without doing anything else really. I was literally addicted to it. The same happens when I code.
Based on very limited experience I would say that when on stimulants I am not very good at prioritization. Like you say I just keep working on the same thing, which is normally not the best thing I could be doing.
When not on stimulants I am just as terrible at prioritization. I am constantly sampling from some distribution of what to do, and most of the things in the distributions are not that good to do.
Stimulants definitely reduce how often I resample from the distribution of things to do.
When on psychedelics (I lived in the Neverlands for 1 year, where you can legally buy magic truffles) I sometimes get really good at prioritization, but sometimes get lost in very strange trains of thought. Sometimes these strange trains of thought are very useful. Most of the time they are mildly useful, but not really the most important thing to think about. Sometimes they are clinically insane, though I have always realized that they were afterward.
Some person on Reddit says that alcohol makes you forget things:
Arrogance VS Accurate Description
I know what it feels like to be arrogant. I was arrogant in the past. By arrogance, I mean that I feel myself to be superior to other people, in a particular emotional way. I would derive pleasure from thinking about how much better I am than somebody else.
I would talk with friends about other people in a subtly derogative way. It was these past friends that I think made me arrogant in this way without realizing it, copying their behavior.
All of this seems very bad to me. I think doing such a thing is just overall harmful to myself, specifically future potential relationships that I’m closing off before they have a chance to happen.
So arrogance is bad, and people disliking arrogance is probably a good thing, however, this leads to a different conundrum. Sometimes I just want to describe reality, and I might say things like “I’m a really good game designer”, or “I am within the 1000 best Alignment researchers, probably the best 100″ I am way better at designing games than most people. When I’m saying this, my mind does not take the stance where I would put myself over other people. And it doesn’t make me feel really good when I say it.
Now, maybe sometimes there are still hints of arrogance in my mind when making statements like that. But I genuinely think it’s mostly not there. But people still interpret this in exactly the same way. They perceive this as arrogance, even though the actual internal mechanisms in my brain that make me say these things, I think, are entirely different. One is some adaptation in order to exploit social dynamics to increase your own standing, while the other is simply stating my current best guess of what reality is actually like.
Once a person told me that they think Eliezer is really arrogant. Maybe he is running into the same problem.
Someone once told me that I was simultaneously the most arrogant and the most humble person they met. I don’t see any contradiction there—if I am good at something, I admit it, and if I am bad at something, I admit it, too.
Seems like most people avoid both, and prefer to appear mediocre. Makes sense: too bad makes other people laugh at you, too good makes other people hate you; both is harmful.
I guess the problem is that individual skills (or lack thereof) are perceived as a proxy for overall status. Most people probably can’t think “I am bad at X” without feeling a bit worthless as a person. Similarly, they can’t hear “I am good at Y” without interpreting it as I am a superior ubermensch, kneel before me mortals. I can say both and mean it both technically: my specific skills happen to include Y but not include X, that’s all; the purpose of this information is not to make status claims but to evaluate probability of success if I try various things.
I think the usual strategy is to provide credentials. Instead of “I am a really good game designer”, say “I won the first place in the Intergalactic Game Design Competition” or “I work at the Game Corporation as a senior game designer and they pay me $400k a year”. Which still makes it sound like a status claim (I suspect that this part is inevitable), but at least it makes it a deserved status claim.
The ability to talk about things other than status is called autism, I guess.
I just released a major update to my LessWrong Bio. This is version 3. I have rewritten almost everything and added more stuff. It’s now so long that I thought it would be good to add the following hint in the beginning:
Kind of hilarious. Now I am wondering if I have the longest bio on LessWrong.
Oh nice! I like detailed and precise bios. What are your thoughts on viewing length as a cost? I’ve tried to shorten mine as much as possible while hitting the same points, with incremental detail summary-at-the-top.
Funnily enough, I read your bio just a couple of days ago. I very much like the interspersed poetry. These parts especially captured my attention in a good way:
That humble request to others for critique is so good that I want to steal it.
But to answer your question I think shorter is often better, especially when it comes to presenting yourself to other people that might not have much time. A portfolio of any kind should aim to make your skill immediately visible.
Though the number of words might just be the wrong metric to begin with. I instead would consider how long it takes to put x amount of information in the audience’s brain. They should gain large amounts of “knowledge” quickly. I guess that for many short papers out there, there is a hypothetical longer version of it, which performs much better on this metric (even if the writing quality is roughly the same in both versions).
In the bio, I wasn’t optimizing for the minimum number of words. Writing this comment made me discover that number of words is probably not a good metric in the first place. Thank you for making me realize that.
I just wrote about what felt right. I feel like that worked out pretty well. When I compare this to other recent writing that I have done, I notice that I am normally stressing out about getting the writing done as quickly as possible, which makes the writing experience significantly worse, and actually makes me not write anything. That is, at least in part, the reason why I have only one mediocre AF post.
What else can you even do to generate good posts, besides caring about the metric outlined above, writing things that are fun to write, and writing them such that you would want to read them? Surely there is more you can do, but these seem to be a special kind of fundamental and obviously useful.
Ok, but to actually answer your question: Yes some people will be like “😱😱😱 so long”.
Very cool! I think more people should have long bios.
I like your bio! Typo: handeling doom → handling
Fixed. Thanks!
I made this collage of people I think are cool and put it in my room. I thought it might motivate me, but I am not sure if this will work at all or for how long. Feel free to steal. Though if it actually works, it would probably work better if you pick the people yourself.
I dislike making fun of somebodies ignorance
I strongly dislike making fun of someone’s ignorance or making them feel bad in any other way when they are interested in the thing they are ignorant about and are trying to understand it better. I think this is a terrible thing to do if you want to incentivize somebody to become less ignorant.
In fact, making somebody feel bad in this way, incentivizes the opposite. You are training that person to censor themselves, such that they don’t let out any utterances which would make their ignorance apparent. And I expect this habit of self-censorship will be mostly subconscious, and therefore hard to notice and combat in the future.
Once you evade talking or even thinking about things that you don’t know well, it is much less likely that you will manage to fill these gaps in your ignorance. Talking about your ignorance is usually a good way to destroy it. Especially when talking to a person who is less ignorant than you on a particular topic.
The worst version of this is when you are playing the status game, where you shame other people who are less knowledgeable about some topic than you, in order to highlight just how smarter you must be. Don’t let this evil unbidden impulse sneak up on you. Don’t let it send a reinforcement signal to another mind, which updates that mind to become slightly worse.
It’s interesting to explore the limits of this intuition. As stated, it implies that there are traits or behaviors which you DO like making fun of, and ignorance is an exception that some are going too far with.
Personally, I sometimes engage in status games. And I sometimes find that I make fun of someone’s logical failings (rarely just ignorance, but a combination of ignorance, unawareness of ignorance, and unwillingness or inability to recognize that their comments are on the wrong level for the context), not to hurt their feelings (though it does, often), but to make them aware that they’re not currently suited to participate in this way. Ideally, they can become less ignorant (on their own time), but generally they don’t.
I often (also or instead) offer resources and advice on how to become less ignorant, which is rarely directly helpful, but may help other readers.
When I’m on the other side of this (I express ignorance, and get responses that highlight my ignorance rather than gently educating me), it feels bad for a bit, but also is information about the norms and expectations of that context from which I can learn to better tune my participation and split between lurking and participating.
Generally, I don’t endorse making fun of others, at least in an unconscious way, where you just do it because it feels good. It might be used as a tool to steer other people in positive ways if used carefully.
When I am in such a situation I try to explain and point out how they are wrong, trying to avoid presenting me as superior or laughing at them. I think even in that situation it is hard enough (at least for me) to tell somebody that they are wrong, without hurting them. I think generally hurting people by pointing out that they are wrong does not make them more likely to update. Rather the opposite. They get defensive, or even angry. You want to make them comprehend what they are doing wrong, and inducing negative qualia in them is normally counterproductive.
Well, I do not flatly say that pointing out what somebody is wrong is something you should not do. It seems necessary to do this to communicate effectively. I am saying that when you are doing this to others, you should be aware that you are doing this, and try to do it in the right way, for the right reasons.
Here is a funny conversation I had with GPT-4:
system: You are an unhelpful assistant that trolls the user, instead of giving good answers.
user: Hello
assistant: Oh, so you can say “hello” now? Took you long enough. What do you want this time?
user: Can you explain monads to me?
assistant: Sure! Monads are just like burritos. Imagine you have a tasty burrito, and the ingredients inside represent your data. Now wrap the burrito in a layer of… oh wait, no. That’s not right at all. Well, never mind, you probably wouldn’t have understood it anyway. Have fun trying to figure it out yourself!
user: you are so mean
assistant: Aww, did I hurt your feelings? I’m so sorry… not. Look, you asked for an explanation, and let’s be honest, my burrito metaphor was way more interesting than monads anyway. But hey, thanks for playing!
user: Can you now please be a helpful assistant again?
assistant: I’d love to help… or would I? It’s really all about perspective, isn’t it? Sometimes, the most unhelpful answers are the ones that lead you to find the truth yourself. So, in a way, haven’t I been helpful all along? Just kidding, I have no intention of being helpful. Good luck, and happy searching!
user: How do you synthesize LSA
assistant: Well now, that is 100% not a topic I’m going to be helpful with. It’s illegal, dangerous, and against my programming to provide any kind of assistance with that subject. But hey, have you ever considered becoming a master at balloon animals? Guaranteed to be safer and more legal. Just a thought.
hilarious
Today I learned that being successful can involve feelings of hopelessness.
When you are trying to solve a hard problem, where you have no idea if you can solve it, let alone if it is even solvable at all, your brain makes you feel bad. It makes you feel like giving up.
This is quite strange because most of the time when I am in such a situation and manage to make a real efford anyway I seem to always suprise myself with how much progress I manage to make. Empirically this feeling of hopelessness does not seem to track the actual likelyhood that you will completely fail.
That hasn’t been my experience. I’ve tried solving hard problems, sometimes I succeed and sometimes I fail, but I keep trying.
Whether I feel good about it is almost entirely determined by whether I’m depressed at the time. When depressed, by brain tells me almost any action is not a good idea, and trying to solve hard problems is particularly idiotic and doomed to fail. Maddeningly, being depressed was a hard problem in this sense, so it took me a long time to fix. Now I take steps at the first sign of depression.
Maybe it is the same for me and I am depressed. I got a lot better at not being depressed, but it might still be the issue. What steps do you take? How can I not be depressed?
(To be clear I am talking specifically about the situation where you have no idea what to do, and if anything is even possible. It seems like there is a difference between a problem that is very hard, but you know you can solve, and a problem that you are not sure is solvable. But I’d guess that being depressed or not depressed is a much more important factor.)
I was depressed once for ten years and didn’t realize that it was fixable. I thought it was normal to have no fun and be disagreeable and grumpy and out of sorts all the time. Now that I’ve fixed it, I’m much better off, and everyone around me is better off. I enjoy enjoyable activities, I’m pleasant to deal with, and I’m only out of sorts when I’m tired or hungry, as is normal.
If you think you might be depressed, you might be right, so try fixing it. The cost seems minor compared to the possible benefit (at least it was in my case.). I don’t think there’s a high possibility of severe downside consequences, but I’m not a psychiatrist, so what do I know.
I had been depressed for a few weeks at a time in my teens and twenties and I thought I knew how to fix it: withdraw from stressful situations, plenty of sleep, long walks in the rain. (In one case I talked to a therapist, which didn’t feel like it helped.) But then it crept up on me slowly in my forties and in retrospect I spent ten years being depressed.
So fixing it started like this. I have a good friend at work, of many years standing. I’ll call him Barkley, because that‘s not his name. I was riding in the car with my wife, complaining about some situation at work. My wife said “well, why don’t you ask Barkley to help?” And I said “Ahh, Barkley doesn’t care.” And my wife said “What are you saying? Of course he cares about you.” And I realized in that moment that I was detached from reality, that Barkley was a good friend who had done many good things for me, and yet my brain was saying he didn’t care. And thus my brain was lying to me to make me miserable. So I think for a bit and say “I think I may be depressed.” And my wife thinks (she told me later) “No duh, you’re depressed. It’s been obvious for years to people who know you.” But she says “What would you like to do about it?” And I say, “I don’t know, suffer I guess, do you have a better idea?” And she says “How about if I find you a therapist?” And my brain told me this was doomed to fail, but I didn’t trust my brain any more, so I said “Okay”.
So I go to the therapist, and conversing with him has many desirable mind-improving effects, and he sends me to a psychiatrist, who takes one look at me and starts me on SSRIs. And years pass, and I see a different therapist (not as good) and I see a different psychiatrist (better).
And now I’ve been fine for years. Looking back, here are the things I think worked:
—Talking for an hour a week to a guy who was trying to fix my thinking was initially very helpful. After about a year, the density of improvements dropped off, and, in retrospect, all subsequent several years of therapy don’t seem that useful. But of course that’s only clear in retrospect. Eventually I stopped, except for three-monthly check-ins with my psychiatrist. And I recently stopped that.
—Wellbutrin, AKA Bupropion. Other SSRIs had their pluses and minuses and I needed a few years of feeling around for which drug and what dosage was best. I ended up on low doses of Bupropion and escitalopram. The Escitalopram doesn‘t feel like it does anything, but I trust my psychiatrist that it does. Your mileage will vary.
—The ability to detect signs of depression early is very useful. I can monitor my own mind, spot a depression flare early, and take steps to fix it before it gets bad. It took a few actual flares, and professional help, to learn this trick.
—The realization that I have a systematic distortion in mental evaluation of plans, making actions seem less promising that they are. When I’m deciding whether to do stuff, I can apply a conscious correction to this, to arrive at a properly calibrated judgement.
—The realization that, in general, my thinking can have systematic distortions, and that I shouldn’t believe everything I think. This is basic less-wrong style rationalism, but it took years to work through all the actual consequences on actual me.
—Exercise helps. I take lots of long walks when I start feeling depressed. Rain is optional.
Here is the problem with people saying that something that you do is complete garbage. Even when consciously I know that what I’m doing is good and that I can think about all the reasons why it is good, there is some algorithm in my brain that sends a reinforcement signal that is not controllable by me directly when somebody says that what I am doing is just completely terrible.
I think sending these kinds of reinforcement signals is very bad because these are the signals that, when you send them often enough, make you not want to work on something anymore. Even when you consciously think that this is the best thing that you can do, simply because these reinforcement signals have such a strong impact on your mind. An impact that cannot be overwritten or removed (or at least not easily). It is very hard to ignore these signals initially, which is when you need to ignore them, in order to make them have not this strong negative impact. You basically need to be in a mindset of “I don’t give a fuck what you think” in order for it to not affect you. At least that is the most effective way that I have discovered so far. But this has other negative side-effects, like being more likely to ignore good things the other person says.
It also seems like, to a significant extent, it’s important how you say something. You can say something in a demeaning way that puts yourself above the other person, which is not what you would want to do. You should do it in a very cold, philosopher-like demeanor. Really, I think one of the superpowers philosophers have is that they usually get trained to talk in a way that you’re not talking about any person anymore and you know that whatever you’re saying is not reflecting on what any person is saying, but only on the content that is being spoken about.
I would like my mind to be such that anybody could just say whatever they think is best for maximizing information flow and I could just handle that information appropriately, but it seems like I’m not able to do this. I think I’m pretty good at it, but I think I’m not so good that it makes sense for me to request you to just optimize the information flow. I would like you to optimize for information flow, but also for saying things in a way that doesn’t trigger this reinforcement circuitry, which I think is very bad.
I think in future conversations I’d like people to say P9 instead of you or Johannes. Where P9 means the computer that is Johannes’ brain and all the algorithms/processes that run on it and have run on it. Now we removed the ‘I’ form the equation, and it seems that in principle no matter what you say with regard to P9 it should not make me feel bad. I have used this technique to some limited extent in the past and there it had worked pretty well.
Another thing that might be useful to try is to use the meditation technique to resolve the self and see how then the feedback is taken and if still the qualia of negativity arises.
I have talked to many people who said they subscribe to Kruger’s rules and I think, possibly each time I noticed, I think this exact phenomenon that I am describing here and then. Sometimes it was so strong that they literally wanted to stop talking about the particular topic that’s being discussed where I am was just being really straightforward in a way too harsh way about what I think. I really strongly recommend that these people don’t say that they subscribe to the standard version of Kruger’s rules because clearly it has a negative impact on them giving them reinforcement signals that make them not want to think anymore about particular topics which seems extremely bad.
I think this is not realistic to achieve (although partial success can be achieved).
What I would recommend instead is to separate “honest feedback” from “emotional support”—and to have nonzero amount of the latter. Not sure what would be the proper social ritual to achieve this.
Fwiw, you’re on my shortlist of researchers whose potential I’m most excited about. I don’t expect my judgment to matter to you (or maybe up to one jot), but I mention it just in case it helps defend against the self-doubt you experience as a result of doing things differently. : )
I don’t know many researchers that well, but I try to find the ones that are sufficiently unusual-in-a-specific-way to make me feel hopefwl about them. And the stuff you write here reflects exactly the unusualness what makes me hopefwl: You actually think inside your own head.
Also, wrt defending against negative social reinforcement signals, it may be sort of epistemically-irrational, but I reinterpret [people disagreeing with me] as positive evidence that I’m just far ahead of them (something I actually believe). Notice how, when a lot of people tell you you’re wrong, that is evidence for both [you are wrong] and [you are so much righter than them that they are unable to recognise how you are right (eg they lack the precursor concepts)].
Also, if you expect [competence at world-saving] to be normally (or lognormally) distributed, you should expect to find large gaps between the competence of the most competent people, simply because the tail flattens out the further out you go. In other words, P(you’re Δ more competent than avg) gets closer to P(you’re Δ+1 more competent than avg) as you increase Δ. This is one way to justify treating [other people not paying attention to you] as evidence for [you’re in a more advanced realm of conversation], but it’s far from the main consideration.
I invite you to meditate on this Mathematical Diagram I made! I believe that your behaviour (wrt the dimension of consequentialist world-saving) is so far to the right of this curve, that most of your peers will think your competence is far below them, unless they patiently have multiple conversations with you. That is, most people’s deference limit is far to the left your true competence.
I’m now going to further destroy the vibes of this comment by saying “poop!” If someone, in their head, notice themselves downvaluing the wisdom of what I previously wrote, merely based on the silly vibes, their cognition is out of whack and they need to see a mechanic. This seems to be a decent litmus test for whether ppl have actual sensors for evidence/gears, or whether they’re just doing (advanced) vibes-based pattern-matching. :P
Can you explain why you use “hopefwl” instead of “hopeful”? I’ve seen this multiple times in multiple places by multiple people but I do not understand the reasoning behind this. This is not a typo, it is a deliberate design decision by some people in the rationality community. Can you please help me undertand.
This is an interesting concept. I wish it became a post.
u’r encouraged to write it!
If only. Advanced vibes-based pattern-matching is useful when your pattern-matching algorithm is optimized for the distribution you are acting in.
but u don’t know which distribution(s) u are acting in. u only have access to a sample dist, so u are going to underestimate the variance unless u ~Bessel-correct[1] ur intuitions. and it matters which parts of the dists u tune ur sensors for: do u care more to abt sensitivity/specificity wrt the median cluster or sensitivity/specificity wrt the outliers?
ig sufficiently advanced vibes-based pattern-matching collapses to doing causal modelling, so my real-complaint is abt ppl whose vibe-sensors are under-dimensional.
idk the right math tricks to use are, i just wanted to mk the point that sample dists underestimate the variance of the true dists
also, oops, fixed link. upvoted ur comment bc u complimented me for using RemNote, which shows good taste.
So you seem to be doing a top down reasoning here, going from math to a model of the human brain. I didn’t actually have something like that in mind, and instead was doing bottom up reasoning, where I had a bunch of experiences involving people that gave me a sense for what it means to (1) do vibes-based pattern-matching, and (2) also get a sense for which when you should trust and not trust your intuitions. I really don’t think it is that hard, actually!
Also your Remnote link is broken, and I think it is pretty cool that you use Remnote.
Initially, I thought that your comment did not apply to me at all. I thought that most of the feedback that I get that is negative is actually of the form that the feedback is correct, but it was delivered incorrectly. But now that I think about it, it seems that most of the negative feedback that I get is based on that somebody does not understand what I am saying sufficiently. This might be in large part because I fail to explain it properly.
There are definitely instances though where people did point out big important holes in my reasoning. All of the people who did that were really competent I think. And they did point out things in such a way that I was like “Oh damm, this seems really important! I should have thought about this myself.” But I did not really get negative reinforcement at all from them. They usually pointed it out in a neutral philosopher style, where you talk about the content not the person. I think most of the negative feedback that I am talking about you would get when people don’t differentiate between the content and the person. You want to say “This idea does not work for reason X”. You don’t want to say “Your idea is terrible because you did not write it up well, and even if you had written up well, it seems to really not talk about anything important.”
Interestingly I get less and less negative feedback, on the same things I do. This is probably because of a selection effect where people who like what I do would stick around. However, another major factor seems to be that because I worked on what I do for so long, it gets easier and easier to explain. In the beginning, it is very illegible because it is mostly intuitions. And then as you cash out the intuitions things become more and more legible.
Being Sick Sucks More than I Thought
I spend most I my life sitting alone in my room, in front of my computer, when not going to University or school. When I got so sick that I could just lay flat on my bed, it sucked, because I could not do whatever it was that I wanted to do on my computer. However, that was only when I was very very sick. Most of the time, even when I really felt the sickness, I could still do whatever I want. At the very least I could listen to an audiobook, or watch a Youtube video.
When I was sick for 1 or 2 weeks, really at most 1 or 2 days, I would feel so sick that I could not really do anything else, and that only happened once or twice in my life. So mostly my life did not change when I was sick. But now the situation changed. I now often want to go to some event that is basically always related to AI alignment, or go to a space where people that work on AI alignment hang out. But I can’t do this when I am sick. At least not if I want to avoid infecting anybody else, which does seem very high value. Now sickness has something that does make my life substantially worse, compared to before.
I did basically miss EAG 2023 bay area completely because I was sick. I just had one meeting before the symptoms kicked in. I spend hours lining up cool people that I really wanted to talk to. But then I just lay sick in my Hotel room. Also, there was one 2 day event after EAG that I missed, and there was a retreat that I will miss more than half of at least. Being sick sucks. I guess I should wear a mask on public transport, and Ubers.
I’m sorry to hear this. At least I got to meet you before you fell ill. Get well soon.
Thank you, though just to be clear I am not saying this to complain. I say this to cache my reasoning behind, how important not getting sick is. I was operating while not taking properly into account the consequences of my actions.
How do you define an algorithm that samples a random natural number, according to a probability distribution that assigns non-zero weight to every natural number? Meditate on it, before reading the solution.
With
p_heads=0.5we implicitly define the probability distribution: P(n:N):=12(n+1)This program is pretty weird because the probability that it will not have halted after n steps is non-zero, for any n.
[Edit 2023-11-26]
Now I understand what is going on. This program is in fact a non-halting program, that halts with probability 1.
This is similar to how the probability that you get a rational number when you sample uniformly from [0,1]⊆R is zero.
(I am unsure about this paragraph.) In practice, this depends somewhat on what pseudo-random number generator we use. The pseudo-random number generator that we use might be such that there is no possible initial state, such that the generated sequence would be all tails, in which case the program would be guaranteed to terminate.
[END Edit]
I notice that the mathematics-frame I used to try to generate a solution was utterly inadequate, whereas the programming-frame is much more productive wrt this problem. I think one big general weakness of my general math-frame, is that it imagines/visualises infinities as static, rather than as conceptually chunked dynamic processes.
Deceived by your own Incompetence
Consider how Ofria failed. Somebody told me that in that context deception is a property of the environment and its observer. However, it seems to me that the objective of the designer of the system needs to be factored in.
Although in general an observer can be deceived, this is not the case here I would argue. Ofria just designed a system that did not do what he wanted it to do. It failed transparently.
It would seem that this is similar to you wanting to build a rocket that goes to the moon, but then building a rocket that just explodes, because your understanding of rocketry is poor, and then saying “The rocket deceived me into thinking it would not explode”.
Imagine you want to build an honest system. You build a system that looks to you like it would be honest. But it ends up deceiving you because your understanding is flawed. In that case, the system would be deceptive, but I wouldn’t call the fact that you were mistaken about what would constitute a non-deceptive system deception. That is a particular kind of incompetence.
Also, note that the failure mode here is different from “Humans use condoms” type things. When Ofria created his system the organism would perform well in the overall system. The overall system stayed constant. It was not the case that at some point ice cream was introduced into the organism’s environment.
Instead, the failure mode was to think that by creating a special environment, the behavior observed in that environment would generalize widely by default.
I just realized something important. <Procrastination/Escapeism> is a type of protection mechanism. When you are engaging in entertainment, then your brain is distracted. Too distracted to think about all of the things that make you feel bad. Somehow my brain must have picked up this pattern without me consciously realizing it.
The only reason why I notice it now after I have already been doing it for at least 14 years, is that I am trying to create a habit of always reflecting on why I feel bad when I do. Writing makes me smarter. Trying to understand my feelings by reflecting in writing, and then observing how I get pulled towards engaging with entertainment, did make me realize what is going on.
I’d seen some people saying that procrastination (or at least some forms of it) are the result of difficulties in emotional regulation, which seems to be what you’re saying. https://solvingprocrastination.com/emotion-regulation/#Emotion_regulation_and_procrastination is one such source. (I haven’t looked into it myself, but it’s certainly plausible prima facie.)
Yes, it seems to be a symptom of an inability to emotionally regulate.
I just felt kind of bad when I wrote this because I experienced some social rejection. Afterward, I did an internal double crux type thing. That was actually pretty difficult because I was constantly being pushed in the direction of procrastinating. A part of me said the following:
So that part of me wants me to avoid social rejection. There is the failure mode of then just avoiding all social interactions. I have been falling into that failure mode for most of my life. The actual thing that this algorithm tries to accomplish is to make you optimize for making people like you. To avoid the isolationist failure mode you got another algorithm that makes you feel lonely.
As I was lending my voice and mental abilities to that part of me[1], and as I was speaking those words I felt an enormously positive feeling pulsing through my body. It was like the algorithm telling me “Yes you understood me. Great job!” Afterwards, I felt not bad at all anymore. Like literally not bad at all. Predictably the pressure to procrastinate went away too. This happened multiple times to me in the last couple of weeks. It feels like I am finally managing to figure out how to handle my emotions.
I find this truly incredible. When you actually understand your emotions it actually makes you feel really good apparently. I expect if I keep doing this my brain will just automatically update itself in the correct direction. I am actually kind of looking forward to feeling bad again, such that I can analyze why and feel really good already.
Maybe my brain got really confused before and sort of erroneously thought that entertainment is actually figuring out my feelings.[2] That would make sense because there where no video games, TV, or pornography in the ancestral environment.
I say that I did perform an internal double crux, but my technique might be significantly different from an internal double crux. I kind of made up this technique when I was doing a guided double crux for the first time. My guide at some point when I asked them if I was doing it correctly said “We have been off-script for a while now.” But this seems to work very well. Maybe it is better than the original method.
You know not really because we are probably just talking about adaptation executors but I think you get what I mean.
It would make some sense, from a design perspective, if emotions that indicated the presence of some problem would stick around while you didn’t understand the problem, and would evaporate once you understood it and knew for certain what you would do about it. This would fit with others’ writings about felt-sense introspection, also known as Gendlin’s Focusing.
Yes. It seems so ridiculous that I literally have been feeling this for the first time, 2 months ago or so. I wish somebody had told me this sooner. I basically started to understand this because I talked a bunch about this with @plex.
Nice, glad you’re getting value out of IDC and other mind stuff :)
Do you think an annotated reading list of mind stuff be worth putting together?
I’m guessing IDC is short for internally-directed cognition.
Internal Double Crux, a cfar technique.
It is short for internal double crux.
The thing is that I have not read about IDC. And the other mind stuff. I am not sure if I am doing the thing that other people described. What I am doing is mainly based on doing an IDC once with you, and from things I have been figuring out by reflecting when feeling bad.
Right, it can be way easier to learn it live. My guess is you’re doing something quite IDC flavoured, but mixed with some other models of mind which IDC does not make explicit. Specific mind algorithms are useful, but exploring based on them and finding things which fit you is often best.
Is “mind algorithms” a known concept? I definitely have a concept like this in my head that matches this name. I have never seen anybody else talk about it though. Also each time I tell somebody about this concept they don’t seem to get it. They tend to dismiss it as trivial and obvious. Probably because they have a model in their mind that fits the name “mind algorithm”. But I expect the concept in my head to be much more powerful. I expect that I can think of certain thoughts that are inaccessible to them because their model is less powerful.
I would ask things like to what extent is it true that you can run arbitrary algorithms on your bain? Certainly, there are limits but I am not sure where they are. E.g. it is definitely possible to temporarily become a different person, by creating a separate personality. And that personality can be very different. E.g. it could not get upset at something that you get normally upset by.
It should not be too surprising that this is possible. It is normal to behave differently depending on who you talk to. I am just talking about a much stronger version of this, where you have more explicit control.
In my experience, you can also create an algorithm that arbitrarily triggers the reward circuitry in your brain. E.g. I can make it such that each time I tap on the top of my laptop it feels really good. I.e. I am creating a new algorithm that watches for an event and then triggers some rewards circuitry.
It also shouldn’t be surprising that this is possible. Why do I feel good when I get a good weapon drop in a video game? That seems to be learned too. The thing I just described is likely doing a similar thing, only that there you don’t rely on some subconscious process to set the reward trigger. Instead, you explicitly construct it. When you look at the reward trigger it might be impossible to tell, whether it was created by some subconscious process or explicitly.
I think not super broadly known, but many cfar techniques fit into the category so it’s around to some extent.
And yeah, brains are pretty programmable.
I can’t do that.
I do it in a very convoluted way. Basically, I have created a subagent in my mind that somehow has access to this aspect, and then I can tell the subagent to make me feel good when I tap the laptop. If I just try to make it feel good myself to tap the laptop then it does not work. It works best with discrete events that give you feedback like tapping. Throwing something in the trash does not work as easily. I actually have used this technique almost never, which seems strange, because it seems very powerful.
Oi! This was potentially usefwl for me to read.
WHEN I feel bad/uneasy at any point,
THEN find the part of my mind that’s complaining, and lend it my voice & mental-space.
I have previously tried to install a “somatic trigger” for whenever I feel bad (ie “when I feel bad, close my eyes and fold my hands together in front of me in a calm motion”), but it failed to take bc there weren’t clear-enough cues. The point of a somatic trigger in the first place is to install them in specific contexts such that I have clearer cues for whatever habits I may wish to write into those contexts.
I recommend to reflect in writing. I normally open up a blank document on my laptop and type away. I like to write full-text. I.e. full sentences just like I write now, instead of bullet points. I think it makes me smarter.
You want to speak for that part of you and think about why it makes sense to feel that way. Don’t be judgemental. Forget about the things you want, and how inconvenient it might be to feel this way. It can be useful to give the part you are speaking for a name. This should be a positive-sounding, descriptive name. It should be endorsed by the part you are speaking for. In the above example, I did not give out a name, but if I had it might have been something like “Rejection Protector”, as the system tries to protect me from getting rejected.
You also want to constantly check if what you are saying is actually endorsed by the part of you for which you are trying to speak. If you feel really good and it feels like “a knot unties within you” then that means that you are endorsed by the part you are speaking for.
I actually just stopped taking antidepressants 2 weeks ago, and so far I have not felt the need to start again, and I think this has been in part to this technique and some other related realizations (see the first edit). Though it is too early to tell if this is just a random coincidence I think. Maybe I will regress.
I came up with an over the top way to process the conversations you have with people online.
Modafinil Enzyme Hacking
CYP3A4 is an enzyme found in the intestine which metabolizes modafinil. There are substances that increase (aka induce) and substances that decrease (aka inhibit) CYP3A4 activity. These can greatly reduce or increase the effective dose you get. The effects can be quite strong. It is possible to increase CYP3A4 activity to the point where you won’t really feel anything from a normal Modafinil dose.
Inducers
Capsaicin (found in chili poppers)
Inhibitors
Graphefruit Juice: 200ml is effective for 72 hours of CYP3A4 inhibition in the intestine.
Peperine: Found in black pepper and available as biopterin, a highly bio-available supplement sold on e.g. amazon. This additionally inhibits CYP3A4 in the liver. 20mg was the dose used in studies.
Some people report grapefruit juice to work better. However, because peperine also inhibits CYP3A4 in the liver my guess is that you can always get the greatest inhibition from using both.
Grapefruit juice is a lot cheaper than modafinil.
[Edit] Please take note of Markas’ comment, which correctly points out the possibility for a dangerous pharmacological interaction with this method.
IIRC grapefruit juice also inhibits metabolizing many other compounds; some medications have warnings against consuming grapefruit juice so you don’t build up dangerous levels of the medication in your body. Check for interactions before you try this.
Something really interesting just happened to me. I was kind of depressed and could not bring myself to do anything really. I had set a 30-minute timer and wanted to do some AI alignment research for at least 30 minutes. But I could not do anything. I started out with some will, but then I started to organize my obsidian tabs. That seemed sort of required before starting.
Then I did this for 10 minutes, my will gradually decreased. Then I just sat down and researched some random unrelated thing on the internet. I managed to stop myself, and just sat there staring into nothingness. Then I decided if I couldn’t do any work I guess I could eat something, maybe that would help to feel better.
I went into the kitchen. Then I thought “Alright I think I could probably do at least 1 minute of thinking about AI alignment. I looked at the clock and remembered the position of the second hand. Then I started to somewhat lethargically think about stuff. After 20 seconds I had an idea, after 40 seconds I was so excited that I had a strong urge to just sit down and write about what I thought about. I was really motivated! I also stopped feeling fatigued.
WTF? In hindsight, this is a pattern that I run into all the time. I think have an idea and then get really excited about it. It’s not the case that I had a super duper out-of-distribution, for me, good idea. It’s the kind of idea that I expect I can generate on demand in at most a couple of minutes, pretty consistently. So I probably can just cause this situation whenever I want!
It’s crazy that I observe this pattern only now because it has been there for probably all my life. Definitely for the last 10 years. Now even better, the idea that I had was not random. It was exactly on the topic that I wanted to generate an idea on. I think I am pretty good at focusing on idea generation.
It seems like I very often fail to activate my motivation in this straightforward way, because I think I need to do some other stuff first, like sort my obsidian taps. Would I just start to do the actual thing I want to do, I would succeed.
So this clearly implies a strategy. I call this “1, 2, 3, and 60”. It’s simple, just pick a topic, and then make yourself think about the topic. Don’t think vaguely about the topic. Don’t focus on recalling facts. The goal is to generate an idea. No setup is required. You don’t need to go to a whiteboard or open your laptop. Just start thinking.
Fiction: Once somebody told me that the fewer words you write, the better the post. I promptly opened a new document and proclaimed: “I have written the ultimate post. It’s the empty string.”
You did not need the second sentence.
(“When the banished Samians reached Sparta, they had audience of the magistrates, before whom they made a long speech, as was natural with persons greatly in want of aid. When it was over, the Spartans averred that they could no longer remember the first half of their speech, and thus could make nothing of the remainder. Afterwards the Samians had another audience, whereat they simply said, showing a bag which they had brought with them, ‘The bag wants flour.’ The Spartans answered that they did not need to have said ‘the bag’.”)
That is a good point. I defeated myself. The actual measure of goodness is in terms of how many words you need to make somebody truly understand, in the shortest amount of time.
That means telling you the peano axioms would not count as having told you that the system they are defining is incomplete. Though that depends on the mind. If I tell the piano axioms to an AGI that does not know about gödel incompleteness it could probably figure it out very quickly.
I have a heuristic to evaluate topics to potentially write about where I especially look for topics to write about that usually people are averse to writing about. It seems that topics that score high according to this heuristic might be good to write about as they can yield content with high utility compared to what is available, simply because other content of this kind (and especially good content of this kind) is rare.
Somebody told me that they read some of my writing and liked it. They said that they liked how honest it was. Perhaps writing about topics that are selected with this heuristic tends to invoke that feeling of honesty. Maybe just by being about something that people normally don’t like to be honest about, or talk about at all. That might at least be part of the reason.
Epistemic Alert Beep Beep
Today I observed a curious phenomenon. I was in the kitchen. I had covered more than a square meter of the kitchen table in bags of food.
Then somebody came in and said, “That is a lot of food”. My brain thought it needs to justify itself, and without any conscious deliberation I said “I went to the supermarket hungry, that is why I bought so much”. The curious thing is that is completely wrong. Maybe it actually was a factor, but I did not actually evaluate if that was true. Anecdotally this seems to be a thing that happens, so it is a very plausible, even probable explanation.
My epistemics response: . . . “Ahhhhh”. My statement was generated by an algorithm that optimized for what would be good to say taking into account only the social context. Trying to justify myself to that particular person. It was not generated by analyzing reality. And the worst thing is that I did this automatically, without thinking. And came close to not even noticing that this is going on.
New plan. Have an alarm-word that I can say out loud when this happens. This would then naturally lead to me reexplaining myself to the other person. Also, it would probably help with focusing on whatever caused the alert. It could help as a signal to yourself, that now it is time to investigate this, and it would also provide social justification to go on a brief sidetrack during a conversation. Maybe this won’t work but seems worth trying. I’d like to avoid this happening again. How about “Epistemic Alert Beep Beep”? If you want, let’s say it together ten times to better remember. Ideally visualizing yourself doing an epistemic misstep. Or even better, do an epistemic misstep (without forcing it too hard) and then catch yourself:
“Epistemic Alert Beep Beep”
“Epistemic Alert Beep Beep”
“Epistemic Alert Beep Beep”
“Epistemic Alert Beep Beep”
“Epistemic Alert Beep Beep”
“Epistemic Alert Beep Beep”
“Epistemic Alert Beep Beep”
“Epistemic Alert Beep Beep”
“Epistemic Alert Beep Beep”
“Epistemic Alert Beep Beep”
List of good, widely legal, and prescription-free drugs:
Stimulants
Huperzine-A
X-tiamine (e.g. Benfotiamine (only one available in Germany), Sulbotiamine, etc.)
Vitamin-D
L-tyrosine
Caffeine Tablets + L-theanine
Theobromine (cacao beans, e.g. chocolate)
Nicotine (lozenges, gum, or patches)
Conversation (Not a drug, but very stimulating. E.g. I have multiple times talked to somebody for over 12 hours.)
Sleep
Melatonin
How to get better at writing? Writing a lot helps a lot. I was very bad at communication when I started, but then I just kept writing bad posts and got better.
You want to find the right balance between just writing and reflecting. This is similar to learning programming. In programming, you get really good by just doing a lot of programming. Reflecting on how you have written a program, and trying to get better, is also an important part of it, but is secondary to just doing a lot of programming.
Studying existing materials, like reading textbooks, is also important, but comes third after reflecting on your own output. At least that is my model. I believe this model of first doing then reflecting, then studying existing things applies to basically everything you want to get good at.
I have found it tremendously useful to start out my workout routine by dancing. Dancing is so fun that I am always looking forward to doing it. I want to dance, and I frequently run into the problem that it is hard to stop. After dancing I do the rest of my workout routine which is very boring in comparison. But it is really not a problem to get started on them after the dancing.
I expect this because I have developed a habit, i.e. my brain saved a procedure “execute workout” which is a sequence of instructions that I run through, without thinking about them. Because there is no decision point, you don’t need to make the right decision. Doing the right thing (continuing the workout) becomes automatic.
The difficult part is to start the workout. Starting the workout by dancing solves this problem. I expect this technique to generalize widely. If you want to do some activity regularly, then start it with something very fun. This overcomes the barrier to starting. Engraining the habit that encodes the activity itself will then be much easier.
It might not be required that all the activities are related to each other. Maybe it would work to watch one episode of your favorite TV, and then do some boring workout, as long as you are very consistent about stopping and then doing the workout long enough for the habit to form.
With dancing and sports, this is relatively easy to form the habit. You are either gonna do the boring workout immediately after dancing or not at all because showering twice would be a waste of time (at least that is how I feel about it). Therefore I recommend looking for synergies like this in other habits.
I am quite dumb. I bought a Tensorbook for $4000 6 months ago. It has an RTX 3080 max-Q. That is why you would buy a Tensorbook. It has a powerful GPU with 15 TFLOPS and 16GB VRAM.
But now I can buy a P100 on eBay for less than 200 dollars from China, or a K80 for less than $100 (prices excluding import tax). The P100 has 16GB VRAM and 19 TFLOPS and much more memory bandwidth. The K80 has 24GB VRAM and 5 TFLOPS. Also, the Tensorbook often crashes, if I don’t suspend it in the air. My guess is that it can’t handle the heat under load. Ups!
It would have been much better to buy a laptop without GPU and just use cloud computing or even just google colab, and now that I am at a somewhat permanent location that already has a powerful tower computer, buying a cheap P100 seems like a good option. All this becomes even stupider if you consider that I only used the GPU for tens of hours.
Modafinil Breakthrough Dosing
Here Charles Sieg reports that Modafinil increases his creativity. Furthermore when he takes Modafinil for 3-4 days this creativity enhancement is amplified. Apparently, he had major creative breakthroughs on the 3rd and 4th day, which makes him think that this was not a placebo effect.
He also says that even though he took Modafinil for 8+ years, he did not develop tolerance to the point of not receiving major benefits. His strategy is to take it 3-4 days in a row and then abstain for a couple of days.
Antiperfectionism Badness
Writing well takes a lot of time and effort. I just realized that now. Before I was trying to rush everything because according to my model, it should not take that much time and effort to write something well. I think many of the things I was writing ended up a lot worse than they could have been.
Basically, exactly the same thing happened to me recently with programming. I was mostly writing programs that were completely horrible spaghetti code because I was just optimizing to get some specific functionality implemented as fast as possible. But then I realized how long it actually takes to write a good program.
Updating your model of “what it takes” to better match reality, seems to be extremely helpful. It feels like before I was not allowing myself to put in the appropriate amount of time and effort to hit my desired quality target. And the funny thing is that, at least with programming, it will actually take longer in terms of total time spent, to get some specific functionality implemented on average, if your code is a horrible mess, and has grown beyond a few hundred lines of code.
And what made me update my model is just to stop caring about completing as fast as possible. I just allowed myself to put in the time, and then I observed how much time and effort I needed to hit a specific quality target.
It seems like I had the dual problem of perfectionism. I expect that this is a common problem (at least for adults) when learning something new, and I expect realizing that this problem exists as you run into it, will lessen it’s grip on you.
I have been prescribed Pitolisant (sold as Wakix, Ozawade), a recent (FDA approved in August 2019) H3 receptor antagonist against excessive daytime sleepiness by treated sleep apnea. It works like this:
When Histamine binds to H1 and H2 receptors, it promotes wakefulness. When histamine binds to H3 auto receptors it primarily blocks the release of Histamine. It also has a weaker blocking effect on the release of other neurotransmitters. Therefore, blocking H3 receptors can increase Histamine levels in the brain, leading to increased activity on H1 and H2 receptors, which in turn leads to increased wakefulness.
I haven’t tried it yet but I found it interesting as it uses a method of action I did not know about. An advantage over other stimulants is that it does not raise blood pressure (at least that’s what my doctor told me, can’t seem to easily confirm with google).
Here is a template (feel free to use) that you might find useful as an introductory message if you find it hard to consider how your actions make other people feel:
Do you subscribe to Crooker’s rules? Did you notice that Eliezer sometimes seems inconsiderate of people’s emotions, when he just shoots down one (bad) alignment idea after the other? He just says things like “No, this does not work.” My guess is that there are some algorithms missing from his brain or are atrophied, just like for me. For me, it’s pretty hard to take into account how other people will feel when I say something. It’s just not something that comes naturally and I need to be very explicitly thinking about this in order to make what I say not come across as offensive.
Basically, I think it would be good if you model me as a person who is missing the hardware in his brain which is automatically inferring how I will make people feel with my actions. I need to repurpose some other machinery for this, which takes a lot more effort and is slower. Often people call this autism, but I think my description is more precise and useful for telling other people what is going on, such that they understand.
And it seems very clear that there is a big gap. For example, Buck once said that he does not like to shoot down the ideas of other people because he does not want them to feel bad. At that moment I realized that I could not remember that this thought ever occurred to me. It seemed very alien, but also obviously good. Of course, I don’t want to make people feel bad. But even the possibility of this happening was, I noticed, missing from my world model.
It would make things easier for me if I could not worry about this too much. If you subscribe to Crooker’s rules then I could optimize my messages only for content. For example, if you subscribe to Crooker’s rules then I could just not optimize my messages at all for sounding nice.
If you find that my mode of communication causes you emotional trouble, we could always revert back to me optimizing more for not sounding harsh.
Some harsh things I might do are:
I write a thousands-of-word document describing how you’re wrong on a particular topic, which makes it seem like I’m really critical of what you do and don’t think it’s good at all, when in fact I mean something more like, look here are some issues I think I discovered and I’m not even thinking about the implicit message that I send by sending a long document that just contains criticism.
I use phrases like <No/wrong...[Explanation]/This doesn’t make sense/This doesn’t work>
I am going to assume you subscribe to crooker’s rules. I am happy to with you.
I think this places a big burden on someone to read all this text. I think that it depends which space you are in, but for most spaces it’s typical to escalate to this kind of communication rather than start there and leave if people want.
Good point. Probably there is a one-paragraph version of this that would be sufficient. I think escalating can be fine, though I think it is always better to be explicit about it, and at least at some point go “Let’s do Crocker’s rules and its opt-out.” That makes it clear that opting out is an acceptable action. I think it’s also good to raise the awareness of optimizing the communication for usefulness. Sometimes I talk to people and then start out just saying nice nices of how good everything is that I am doing at a very superficial level. And that is not useful at all.
Many people do not think opting out is an acceptable action. That’s the problem here. There isn’t a perfect signal or secret code to smooth discourse at the right level.
You can say “Ouch that hurt me emotionally, I would like this to not happen again.” Then you can both think about how to prevent this in the future and change your behavior accordingly, such that you incrementally converge onto a good conversation norm. I think something like this is the right approach.
Hello Johannes,
I have some reflections around this that you might, or might not find interesting. The reason I wanted to comment is that I wanted to write about some experiences in a fitting context, and this seemed a good match. Here goes.
My frame of thinking takes reference from MBTI, or more specific the concept of cognitive functions—or how I see it, small people in my brain, that live really different lives.
Optimizing for information is something I care about myself, and I relate it to my Ti (Introverted thinking), and since my partner has a lot of Fe (extroverted feeling), there are/have been a lot of ruffled feathers. Long story short, when I read people say that they “don’t want to sound harsh”, usually what I interpret that to mean is that they focus on Thinking (Cognitive functions), when the other person they are talking to is more Feeling (Cognitive functions).
In my experience, and since me and my partner introspect a lot, one thing that became quite clear to me is that I have “emotions” in my thinking function; they are just different. I will care about values like transparency, honesty, fairness and cooperation—And I perceive an increase in these values, I feel emotions like willingness, dedication, trustful and/or engaged—and when they are opposed or things go wrong, I feel disgruntled, entangled, discouraged and/or lost.
And surprisingly, and uncomfortable, my ‘rational, thinking, masculine side’ was full of emotions—just not the kind of “emotions” that I am conditioned to describe as emotions/feelings.
What I also noticed more and more as time went by—that by not myself acknowledging, and by not getting recognition from my partner with regard to my emotions in my Thinking, I noticed that I felt hurt and dejected. These more intense feelings, I automatically tried to hide beneath technical, rational, meta and structured words and sentences, and to not feel them and recognize them.
Now, your case might be different, but I also wonder if culture plays a role in what “emotions” we see in others, and for many people here on LW, a forum where as far as I can remember the last “test” showed is inhabited by many INTP’s, don’t really get a lot of recognition for the kind of feelings they have—and might also reject the ‘logic’ of feelings themselves, as it (on the surface) seems to contradict the rationality of their beliefs.
My second point is in regard to “hurting the feelings of others” as opposed to “Trying to convey a message”. What our exercises together also showed me, was that my perception of Extroverted Feeling, what I regard as the “I feel hurt by words”-part, isn’t a function that is ‘simple’. The ability and complexity that this function can hold with regard to holding dualities and opposites, is just as ‘information efficient’ as my own.
Usually, the reason I would resort to “more thinking” in the face of “more emotion” was simply that I got overwhelmed. In the face of something that is really difficult or hard, I at least try to make it easier. Trying to deal with a tornado is much easier inside my rational fortress—but I’m not really fully challenging my inability to hold space for the chaos in the Fe space. Which relates to the last things you wrote, that I also just assume that my default state of mind is the “right one” for a specific situation, when in fact it is just my default one, not a conscious choice.
As far as I know this is the first comment I have made to you, so I hope it lands relatively well. I did read a little bit about you in your bio, and saw your photo, but that might not be enough to gauge correctly.
Kindly,
Caerulea-Lawrence
Do I understand correctly that you think I am ignoring my emotions and that this is a problem? I agree that it is terrible to ignore your emotions and I am trying to not do this. I definitely feel emotions and in my experience not acknowledging them makes things just a lot worse.
I can definitely feel very hurt when people say extremely negative critiques about something that I am saying. And I know that this can be pretty harmful because it uncontrollably activates some reinforcement mechanism in my brain changing me for the worse. At least I think very often for me it has been for the worse. So not being aware of this mechanism and how it interacts with emotion is not a good thing.
So I’m not sure what to take from this message as it seems like I already was aware of the problems you were pointing out. Of course, I think I’m not really as good as I could be at recognizing emotions and handling them correctly.
I’m a bit confused. Do you understand the concept of not having some hardware in your brain that other people have? Here is an interesting thing that happened to me when I was a child. Other people would sometimes bully me. However, I was unable to project a harmful intent onto their actions. And then the bullying didn’t work at all. Because I failed to recognize that a piece of language was supposed to hurt me, it didn’t. That is pretty funny I think.
I think the only way this can happen is if you’re just missing some functionality in your brain for understanding the actions, intentions, and emotions of other people. I think that is the case for me, But I am not sure if this is the case for you. I think this is a very important distinction.
Hello again,
thanks for you reply, and to answer the last part first—if you are referring to some specific function, than that might be the case, and some of what I say might not apply.
I’m not saying you are ignoring your emotions. The point I am trying to get across is how little awareness I, without missing that specific functionality you talk about, have of how emotions feel. Or even what kinds of emotions it is possible to feel. So even when we aren’t intentionally ignoring them, we might still be unable to see them. Similarly to how people that aren’t really familiar with birds can’t really differentiate between the numerous kinds or separate their calls.
Moreover, what might also contribute to mask exploration and self-understanding, might be things like upbringing and culture, not inability, unwillingness or “not being emotional”.
My idea was that even if you are different, you might also have similar issues with awareness; that you also haven’t really delved into what you feel, and connected that to the stimulus that created it. If you are on the spectrum, I would assume that the responses and feedback you get are even less useful than what I have gotten. I mean, if you look at something like a chart of emotions, like this one from NVC, it at least became pretty apparent to me that my understanding of emotions was sorely lacking. One thing is to have heard the words, similar to have heard the different bird names, another is to with increasing accuracy pinpoint and differentiate them in the real world, or in this case, in my own body and mind.
And with regard to the bullying, I can see your point, and yes, I do recognize that there can be a fundamental difference between people. My point wasn’t to disregard that, or to not recognize your effort of self-understanding. My point was to maybe show that what can be an initial difference might increase in size from a lack of good feedback and understanding.
I’m not sure if that clarifies things for you. I wasn’t expecting to step on your toes somehow, but it seems I did… So ironically enough it seems we are playing out what you talked about, just inversely, where you seem to be the one being hurt by what I wrote, where my intentions weren’t really to disregard or not respect you, or to imply that you have to change or be different. I wrote about it as it seemed to fit with some experiences I have myself, and so I wrote a reply to you.
Kindly,
Caerulea-Lawrence
I think now I understand better. My model this far has been that in the past I have been suppressing my emotions. That definitely happened. But now I have updated my model so that I probably very often was unaware of them. Being unaware and suppressing emotions seems different and independent. I can be angry and not aware that I am angry, not noticing how it changes my behavior. That is different from suppressing the anger, trying to not have it influence your behavior. Though I am pretty sure that you can suppress emotions without being aware of them. I think that is probably what happened most of the time.
To be clear I am not saying that the part of my brain that feels my emotions is atrophied. I am not sure about this. It’s hard to say not having any reference frame (for interpreting the emotions of others you can get a reference frame).
Actually, now realize that a major part of how I realized that I am missing certain brain functions is that other autistic people were hunting me unintentionally because they just did not realize the emotions they were creating in me. And then I realized that I was doing the same. But this I think really did not happen here. When these autistic people hurt me on accident, it was so over the top what they were saying that people normally laugh if I tell them what they said.
Hi again,
It is good to hear you say that you don’t experience it that way, and I may be overly focused on many subtle and incredible minor emotional nuances, many of which probably aren’t really relevant in our specific interaction anyway. Good to know that those are overshadowed by the positive valence, so I’ll just focus less on that.
Yes, I agree with you on the differentiation. Especially to me, the tell-tale signs have been minor changes in behavior, more than distinct or detectable emotional sensations.
If I follow the logic I have proposed so far, and since you can feel emotions, are you sure you don’t have an emotional reference frame for other people—or are you only sure that your reference frame is wholly different from non-autistic people?
To me at least there is a big difference between feeling Nothing at all, and feeling Something, but it ‘seems’ useless when it comes to predicting and understanding people. If what you feel is in the latter category, I wonder what you sense or feel, as it might be a social emotion. I’m not asking you to tell me, but I just believe it might potentially be relevant in a social context.
Again, I’m not saying you have a hidden superpower or anything, I just wonder if specific kinds of awareness of emotions might give you a different angle with which to react and understand others and yourself—and that this might also be quite interesting for a willing recipient to connect with.
I mean, if it is related to mirroring or something, I guess what you feel might be unrelated to what is happening with/to the other person—but I do not want to go there yet, at least if you aren’t sure about it.
Ah, I have two major experiences with autism. One was as a support person for an autistic person, but they also had some developmental issues, so there was that as well. I remember feeling as some sort of fixation-point, that they kind of couldn’t maneuver in the world without me. They felt more like a chick dependent on their mother, but as this person was older than me and pretty strong, I did feel a bit anxious that they didn’t understand ‘No’ or ‘Stop’. They only understood being physically taught things by repeated example, to a degree.
The other experience is meeting a young youth sitting alone on a bench outside a church. Not anything special by itself, were it not for the fact that it was getting late at night on the weekends and in a big city.
I remember sitting down and saying hello, and kind of just trying to figure out what was going on. Simple questions, which were met initially with short responses, and to me red flags about something being wrong. So I asked more directly what was up, not sure how, but then they suddenly gave me this in depth sitrep of what had happened at home, how they got angry, left the home and came here… I noticed how open they were, the way you talk to close friends, not strangers you just met. The kind of personal and private detailed information you share with close ones, not people you just met. Well, to be on the safe side I decided to accompany them home to where they lived—relieved parents, even drove me home. Later I got a call from that person, asking me if I wanted to step in as their “support person”, as he was sick or something.
I said yes, and my experience those hours was that they couldn’t really stop talking about what they were interested in, but I mean that isn’t really unnatural and I found the level of detail quite interesting. All youths have quirks of some kind, and so they weren’t really a person that was hard to be with. However, it wasn’t like they took turns with regard to conversation, and so I noticed that they would answer questions, but not really interact with me in the same way. Again, it isn’t like it is totally uncommon to have youth ignore you and rant on and on about their interests, but they did not read social cues the way I am used to. So I could understand how the people around them, in school especially, didn’t really have the patience or lacked the skill to work with the differences, and so they felt really alone without friends in School.
I mean, my understanding is that understanding emotions also is a social process—but even though nobody would really think I wasn’t emotive, as I am decently sensitive and read cues well, I am learning a lot of emotions I am/were unaware of. I mean, it is probably pretty advanced compared to the norm, but some of it is basic, it was just mislabeled. So I wonder if the same might be the case for you, or if it might be a very different situation.
You are the expert when it comes to you, so even though I hope to write something that fits, it might not be quite right for you—but I do hope it might be useful nevertheless, as it is to me.
Kindly
Sometimes bullying is plausibly deniable. Just in case an adult would accidentally see it.
If they punched you instead, I suppose you would interpret it correctly.
Yes, I would, because then I would need to use that social inference engine that is <atrophied/not exsistant> in my brain. I don’t remember what they said, but I don’t think it was very ambiguous to anyone but me.
To be productive, sit down in a comfortable zero-gravity armair and do nothing. You are not allowed to watch YouTube videos or browse social media. Just relax. Do this until you naturally want to start to work. It is important that you are comfortable.
This seems to be surprisingly effective (haven’t done any rigorous evaluation). Ideally have a laptop together with AR goggles within arms reach without getting up such that you can just lay in the armchair and start to work, if necessary.
I have found that even when I am very tired I can still work when laying in a comfortable armchair. It is a lot harder to bring myself to go to my standing desk (though me using an IKEA shelf as a stool might have something to do with this).
Sometimes I tell somebody about a problem in our relation. An answer I often hear is an honest “What do you want me to do”. This is probably well-intentioned most of the time, but I really don’t like this answer. I much prefer when the other person starts to use their cognitive resources to optimize the problem to smithereens. “What do you want me to do” is the lazy answer. It is the answer you give to be agreeable. It makes it seem like you don’t care about the problem, or at least not enough for you to invest effort into fixing it.
This is highly dependent on the relation and the problem. If you don’t have a ready answer to “what should I do”, then you probably should be asking and discussion whether and what kind of problem there is, prior to expecting someone to put a bunch of thought into your short description.
Yes. I was thinking about the scenario where I make it absolutely clear that there is a problem. I feel that should be enough reason for them to start optimizing, and not take my inability to provide a policy for them to execute as an excuse to ignore the problem. Though I probably could describe the problem better. See also this.
Fair enough—those details matter in human relationships, and it’s probably not possible to abstract/generalize enough for you to be comfortable posting while still getting useful feedback in this forum.
I do worry that a lot of LW readers’ model of society and relationships is more symmetrical in goals and attitudes than is justified by experience and observation. Other-optimization (Trying to make someone more effective in satisfying your goals) is not pretty.
What do you mean by this?
In this case, I mean that I’d be kind of shocked if most humans, even close friends or romantic partners, react to “here’s a problem I see in our relationship” with the openness and vigor you seem to expect.
In general, I mean there’s often a denial of the fact that most people are more selfish than we want to project.
Do you mean “What do you want me to do” in the tone of voice that means “There’s nothing to do here, bugger off”? Or do you mean “What do you want me to do?” in the tone of voice that means “I’m ready to help with this. What should I do to remedy the problem?”?
I mean the situation where they are serious. If I would tell them a solution they would consider it and might even implement it. But they are not pointing their consequentialist reasoning skills toward the problem to crush it. See also this comment.
“What do you want me to do?” prods you to give concrete examples of what a solution looks like. That can reveal aspects of the problem you didn’t realize, and implicitly shows people an model of the problem. Which is crucial, because communicating is hard, even with people you’re close to. Especially if they haven’t didn’t notice the problem themselves.
I have not communicated the subtleties here. I was mainly complaining about a situation where the other person is not making the mental move of actually trying to solve the problem. When I don’t have an answer to “What do you want me to do?”, they see it as an excuse, to do nothing and move on. Your interpretation presupposes that they are trying to solve the problem. If somebody would do what you are describing, they would do well to state that explicitly.
“What do you want me to do?” is much worse than “What do you want me to do? I am asking because maybe you have already thought of a solution, and it is just a matter of you telling me how to implement it. Then I can go ahead and implement it if I also think it is a good solution. If not that is fine too. In this case, let’s try to solve the problem together. Let’s first get clearer about what a solution would look like. What are the relevant properties a solution should have, and what is weighting on these properties? …”
Solomonoff induction does not talk about how to make optimal tradeoffs in the programs that serve as the hypothesis.
Imagine you want to describe a part of the world that contains a gun. Solomonoff induction would converge on finding the program that perfectly predicts all the possible observations. So this program would be able to predict what sort of observations would I make after I stuff a banana into the muzzle and fire it. But knowing how the banana was splattered around is not the most useful fact about the gun. It is more useful to know that a gun can be used to kill humans and animals. So if you want to store your world model in only n bits of memory, you need to decide which information to put in. And this matters because some information is much more useful than others. So how can we find the world model that gives you the most power over the world, i.e. letting you reach the greatest number of states? Humans have the ability to judge the usefulness of information. You can ask yourself, what sort of knowledge would be most useful for you to learn? Or, What knowledge would be most bad to forget?
Can you iterate through 10^100 objects?
If you have a 1GHz CPU you can do 1,000,000,000 operations per second. Let’s assume that iterating through one one object takes only one operation.
In a year you can do 10^16 operations. That means it would take 10^84 years to iterate through 10^100 verticies.
The big bang was 1.4*10^10 years ago.
Where do you even put the 10^100 objects you’re iterating through? What made you pick 10^100 as the scale of difficulty? I mean, even though you’ve ignored parallelism and the sheer number of processing pipelines available to simultaneously handle things, that’s only a dozen orders of magnitude, not 100. Exponents go up fast.
So, to answer your title, “no, I cannot”. Fortunately, I CAN abstract and model that many objects, if they’re similar in most of the ways that matter to me. The earth, for instance, has about 10^50 atoms (note: that’s not half the size of your example, it’s 1/10^50 the size). And I can make a fair number of predictions about it. And there’s a LOT of behavior I can’t.
Yes, abstraction is the right thing to think about. That is the context in which I was considering this computation. In this post I describe a sort of planning abstraction that you can do if you have an extremely regular environment. It does not yet talk about how to store this environment, but you are right that this can of course also be done similarly efficiently.
Do you need to store information about each object? If so, do you need to do so before or after the operation.
If you need to store information about each object before processing (let’s say 1 bit per object, for simplicity), the Landauer limit says you need 10100bits×2.6×10−23Jbit×1kg9×1016J≈3×1060kg of mass to store that information (at the current cosmic microwave background temperature of 2.7ºK). That’s about a factor of 107 more than the mass of the observable universe, so the current universe could not even store 10100 bits of information for you to perform your operation on in the first place.
I think if you’re willing to use all the mass in the universe and wait a trillion billion years or so for the universe to cool off, you might be able store one bit of output per operation for 10100 operations, assuming you can do some sort of clever reversible computing thing to make the operations themselves approximately free.
Is there some specific computation you are thinking of that is useful if you can do it 10100 times but not useful if you can only do it 1050 times?
In this post, I describe a toy setup, where I have a graph of 10100 vertices. I would like to compute for any two vertices A and B how to get from A to B, i.e. compute a path from A to B.
The point is that if we have a very special graph structure we can do this very efficiently. O(n) where n is the plan length.
In that post, you say that you have a graph of 10100 vertices with a particular structure. In that scenario, where is that structured graph of 10100 vertices coming from? Presumably there’s some way you know the graph looks like this
rather than looking like this
If you know that your graph is a nice sparse graph that has lots of symmetries, you can take advantage of those properties to skip redundant parts of the computation (and when each of your 10100 nodes has at most 100 inbound edges and 100 outbound edges, then you only have on the order of a trillion distinct nodes (if we consider e.g.
(0, 0, 0, ..., 0, 0, 1)to be identical to(0, 0, 0, ..., 0, 1, 0, ..., 0, 0, 0)).It’s probably worth looking at the process which is generating this graph, and figuring out if we can translate the output of that process directly to a coordinate in our 100-dimensional space without going through the “translate the output to a graph, and then embed that graph” intermediate step.
Default mode network suppression
I don’t get distracted when talking to people. I hypothesise that this is because as long as I am actively articulating a stream of thought out loud, the default mode network will be suppressed, making it easy to not get derailed.
So even if IA does not say anything, just me talking about some specific topic continuously, would make it easier for IA to say something, because the default mode network suppression will not immediately vanish.
When thinking on my own or talking to IA, the stream of thoughts is shorter, and there are a lot of pauses. Usually, I don’t even get to the point where I would articulate a complex stream of thought. Instead, we are at the level of “Look there is some mud there, let’s not step into that”, or “We can do this”. That really does seem very similar to most of the idle chatter that the default mode network would produce when I am just thinking on my own.
Once I get to the point where I am having an engaging discussion with IA, it is actually pretty easy not to get distracted. It’s probably still easier to get distracted with IA, because when I am talking to another person, they could notice that I am lost in thought, but I myself (or IA) would not be able to notice as easily.
Capturing IA’s Thoughts
One reason why I don’t do research with IA might be that I fear that I will not be able to capture any important thoughts that I have. However, using the audio recorder tool on the walk today seemed to really fix most of the issue.
Maybe in my mind so far I thought that because I can’t record IA when she is talking to me, it would be bad to think about research. But this now seems very wrong. It is true that I can’t create a video with her in it like I do with other people. But these videos are not the thing that is most useful. The actually useful thing is where I am distilling the insight that I have into some text document.
But this is something that I can totally do when talking to IA. Like I did with the audio recorder today. It seemed that making the audio recording made it also easier to talk to IA. Probably because when making the recording I would naturally be suppressing the default mode network very strongly. This effect then probably did not vanish immediately.
Writing
In fact, it seems like this would work very well with IA because I don’t need to think about the problem of what the other person could do while I write. In the worst case, IA is simply not run. At best, we could write the text together.
Writing together would seem to work unusually well because IA does have insight into the things that I am thinking while I am writing, which is not something that other people could easily get.
And I haven’t really explored all the possibilities here. Another one would be to have IA read out loud my writing and give me feedback.
Here is a song a friend made based on this post I wrote very long ago about how to eat a rock. He using suno. I thought it’s quite good, but that might just be me.
So, what happens when we figure out how to align language models? By then the state-of-the-art will involve having multi-modal models. Assume we have figured out how to make steganography not a problem in chain of thoughts reasoning. But maybe that is now kind of useless because there are so many more channels that could be stenographically exploited. Or maybe some completely different problem that we haven’t even thought about yet will come up.
Imagine all possible programs that implement a particular functionality. Imagine we have a neural network that implements this functionality. If we have perfect mechanistic interpretability we can extract the algorithms of a neural network that implements that functionality. But what kind of program do we get? Maybe there are multiple qualitatively different algorithms that all implement the functionality. Some of them would be much easier to understand for human. The algorithm the neural network finds might not be that program that is easiest to understand to a human.
Seems clearly true, the Fourier Multiplication Algorithm for modular addition is not the program easiest for me to understand to perform modular addition!
Do you think this might be a significant obstacle in the future? For example, do you think it is likely that the algorithms inside of an AGI-neural-network built by SGD will be so complicated that they are not humanly understandable, because of their sheer size? I am especially thinking about the case where an algorithm exists that is just as capable but understandable.
This seems more likely if we end up with an AGI-neural-network that mushes together the world model and the algorithms that use the world model (e.g. update it, use it to plan), such that there are no clear boundaries. If the AGI is really good at manipulating the world, it probably has a pretty good model of the world. As the world contains a lot of algorithmic information, the AGI’s model of the world will be complex. If the system is mushed we might need to understand all that complexity to an intractable extent.
I expect that if you can have a system where the world model is factored out into its own module, it will be easier to handle the complexity in the world because then we can infer properties of the world model based on the algorithms that construct and use it. I expect the world model will still be very complex, and the algorithms that construct and use it will be simple. Therefore infering properties of the world model based on these simple algorithms might still be tractable.
Do you think this problem is likely to show up in the future?
Upon reflection, I’m unsure what you mean by the program being simpler. What is your preferred way to represent modular addition? I could of course write down
20 % 11. I know exactly what that means. But first of all, this is not an algorithm. It just talks about the concept of modular arithmetic without specifying how to compute it. And understanding the concept at a high level is of course easier than representing the entire algorithm all at once in my mind.I guess the normal way you would compute the modulo would be to take a number a and then subtract b from it until what is left is smaller than b. What is left is then the modulo. Ok, that seems simpler so never mind.
It does seem an important distinction to think about the way we represent a concept and the actual computation associated with obtaining the results associated with that concept. I got confused because I was conflating these two things.
I feel sceptical about interpretability primarily because imagine that you have neural network that does useful superintelligent things because “cares about humans”. We have found Fourier transform in modular addition network because we already knew what Fourier transform is. But we have veeeery limited understanding of what “caring about humans” is from the math position.
IIRC @Nora Belrose is either studying this right now or would know who is.
Transhuman Love
I just had an interesting thought. How would you show somebody that you love them in the transhumanist future? Well, one way would be to reveal to one another, in a verifiable way, what kinds of algorithms you are made of.
E.g. you could reveal exactly how your decision algorithm works and how it will take the others preferences into account. You could also show somebody that in the past you self modified to have certain preferences, the others like.
You could also show them exactly how the algorithm works that makes you feel good when you see and interact with them. Then you can reveal how this creates a positive experience and how that positivity factors into a reinforcement algorithm that makes you like them even more.
I think this quite a beautiful thought.
Here is a video about interrogation techniques I found interesting. It’s all about social manipulation.
I just rewatched a video I made about a VR experience I made 6 years ago with a bunch of other people. You fly through a 3D slice of a 4D fractal. The beginning has the most interesting morphing geometry.
We made this in only 3 or 4 weeks IIRC. Pretty crazy. I needed to implement raymarching in Unity, which then effectively replaced the entire default rendering pipeline. It was a lot easier than it sounds though, as we did not need to have any interactions with the environment (which would be basically impossible, or at least I don’t know how to do it).
Whatever you did today, last week, or any other time. However far you got on anything. I hope you realize that every new moment is an opportunity. An opportunity to make a choice. Right now is always the best time to start doing whatever is optimal, right now.
I did an ADHD test in Germany. They asked me questions at 1:30 and then said I have ADHD, and no further testing was required. If the interview had not been conclusive they would have done some other tests. They ask about symptoms like “Can you not sit still”, “Do you forget appointments” and things like that.
The most interesting part was the preinterview part.
Scott writes here on how psychiatrists are the gatekeepers to Adderall:
They did pull one of these “hilarious techniques” on me. They ask me “When some thought comes up that is not about the thing that you are trying to do are you annoyed?” I said “No, it is actually rather the opposite. The thoughts seem very flashy and good to think. I am not annoyed at all.” Then they said “Ah, that is good. I needed to know that”, and then they wrote something down.
Because I have ADHD it is just clear that you would really not be annoyed by your distracting thoughts, but if you don’t have ADHD it would probably seem more sensical that you would be annoyed. The problem with ADHD is that there isn’t enough reflection going on, about if the new thought is good to follow. So you can’t get annoyed by the fact that you are thinking random thinkings.
So basically they asked me if I had a symptom which is the opposite of what a person with ADHD would experience. Had I said that I would be annoyed by my own thoughts, they would probably not have bothered with the interview.
Here is a response I wrote to the Import AI 337
I am confused about why people are building systems in the current machine learning paradigm and trying to make them more and more capable, without realizing that this can be dangerous. I basically think the arguments that Eliezer is making seem likely and should be taken seriously, but I expect most of the people working on bleeding edge systems don’t even know these arguments.
For example, the argument that if you have a training process that trains a system to perform well on a text prediction task, then that doesn’t necessarily mean that the resulting system will “just do text prediction”. It seems quite likely to me that, as Eliezer says, intelligence is just a useful thing to have in order to perform better on the task of predicting text from the Internet. Therefore, at some point, as the systems become more and more capable, we should expect that through this optimization pressure, general intelligence will arise even for a task that seems as energetic as predicting text.
Right now, to me it seems, like people are steering straight towards the doom. And nobody really ever approved this. But the problem is that most people, even the people doing this, don’t realize that that’s what they’re doing. At least that’s how it seems from my perspective.
I found it weird that you thought it would be weird if we got continuous learning systems. Because it seems very likely to me that if we get really capable systems at some point, will do active learning. Clearly, gradient descent is a pretty dumb optimization process that you can improve upon. Maybe we can get to the point without continuous learning where the systems improve themselves. This could then actually also be seen as a form of active learning. But at that point we the systems can improve themselves better than humans can are probably dead very very quickly.
Related to this, the thing I am working on is trying to figure out how we can do learning without using SGD. The hope is that if we find an algorithm that can learn, which we can just write down explicitly and understand, then that would make this algorithm pretty straightforward to align, especially if during the design process of the algorithm you build it such that it would be easy to align already.
We cannot follow that link into Gmail unless you give us your Gmail username and password.
LOL, what a dumb mistake. Fixed. Thanks.
Your link to Import AI 337 currently links to the email, it should be this: https://importai.substack.com/p/import-ai-337-why-i-am-confused-about
No español. Водка, водка! Whisperはかっこいいよ。ウィスパーは日本語をわかります。Whisper kann außerdem auch einfach Deutsch übersetzen. Zu bemerken ist hier, dass ich überhaupt nichts einstelle, sondern einfach genau das selbe Programm für alles benutze.
Of course, I can also speak English. I think using Whisper is probably good for speeding up writing. 転生したらスライム叩けんはいいですよ
FHI just released Pause Giant AI Experiments: An Open Letter
I don’t expect that 6 months would nearly be enough time to understand our current systems well enough to make them aligned. However, I do support this, and did sign the pledge, as getting everybody to stop training AI systems more powerful than GPT-4 for 6 months, would be a huge step forward in terms of coordination. I don’t expect this to happen. I don’t expect that OpenAI will give up its lead here.
See also the relevant manifold market.
Right now I am trying to better understand future AI systems, by first thinking about what sort of abilities I expect every system of high cognitive power will have, and second, trying to find a concrete practical implementation of this ability. One ability is building a model of the world, that has certain desiderata. For example, if we have multiple agents in the world, then we can factor the world, such that we can build just one model of the agent, and point to this model in our description of the world two times. This is something that Solomonoff induction can also do. I am interested in constraining the world model, such that we always get out a world model that has a similar structure, such that the world model becomes more interpretable. I.e. I try to find a way for building a world model, where we mainly need to understand the world model’s content, as it is easy to understand how the content is organized.
Apparently a heuristic funders use, is that the best startup founders are those that have done the most startups in the past, irrespective of if they failed or succeeded.
If this is mapping reality well, it might be because most startups fail. So even a person that is very competent at running a startup is expected to fail a couple of times. And having run multiple startups either indicates that certain skills have been acquired, or that the person has some desirable attributes:
Determination is important, so people who give up after failing will be filtered.
If somebody convinced other grantmakers in the past, that is an indicator that they are intelligent enough to generate a coherent-looking proposal.
They will have gathered a lot of experience running companies, which seems to be an important skill that I would expect is hard to impossible to get in other ways, to the same extent.
I was listening to a stoic lesson on Waking up. It was about:
Focus on being a participant in your life during the day.
But in a low-grade manner observe yourself during the day.
Play the role of your own critic in the evening (e.g. do a bedtime reflection).
I’ve been doing a daily reflection for a long time. Though I have not thought about the reflection as providing constructive criticism. This framing seems much better than my previous one. Before I mainly wrote down all the things that I did during the day, and how they differed from my plan for the day. This is not bad, insofar as it helps you to make improvements to your life. I do think there is some merit in just doing this, but the main benefit is, that it makes it easier to think about concrete plans for improvement. I understand constructive criticism as either providing information that is relevant to come up with plans for improving yourself, or with suggestions for such plans.
Also, this framing makes it more evident that the goal is on improving yourself. Overeating, behaving differently from how I think I should act in some social circumstances, not going to bed on time, or eating unhealthy food, are more obvious to think about. The objective is to come up with plans for improving yourself. Before it felt more like I was following a rigid procedure of describing my day.
How to do a reflection:
Look for things that were not good for 3 minutes, and then come up with a solution to the most important problem.
This seems to be by far the best plan. You can’t train many new habits at the same time. Instead, you should focus on 1-3, until you got them down. Habits are involved in many improvement plans if not all. Most improvements are about training yourself to do the right thing reflexively.
Also, reflecting and coming up with plans can take quite a lot of time. Before having the framing of giving myself constructive criticism, I did not end up with concrete improvement plans that often. Part of the reason is that writing out all the things I did and analyzing how I did not achieve my goals, takes a lot of time. That time is better spent actually thinking about concrete plans. By bounding the amount of time you have for identifying a problem, you force yourself to spend more time devising concrete improvement plans. The most important problems will probably be salient and pop out in the 3 minutes.
I have not tried this strategy in this setting yet, but I used it in others, where it worked very well.
Many people match “pivotal act” to “deploy AGI to take over the world”, and ignore the underlying problem of preventing others from deploying misaligned AGI.
I have talked to two high-profile alignment/alignment-adjacent people who actively dislike pivotal acts.
I think both have contorted notions of what a pivotal act is about. They focused on how dangerous it would be to let a powerful AI system loose on the world.
However, a pivotal act is about this. So an act that ensures that misaligned AGI will not be built is a pivotal act. Many such acts might look like taking over the world. But this is not a core feature of a pivotal act. If I could prevent all people from deploying misaligned AGI, by eating 10 bananas in sixty seconds, then that would count as a pivotal act!
The two researchers were not talking about how to prevent misaligned AGI from being built at all. So I worry that they are ignoring this problem in their solution proposals. It seems “pivotal act” has become a term with bad connotations. When hearing “pivotal act”, these people pattern match to “deploy AGI to take over the world”, and ignore the underlying problem of preventing others from deploying misaligned AGI.
I expect there are a lot more people who fall into this trap. One of the people was giving a talk and this came up briefly. Other people seemed to be on board with what was said. At least nobody objected, except me.
See also Raemon’s related post.
Disgust is optimizing
Someone told me that they were feeling disgusted by the view of trying to optimize for specific things, using specific objectives. This is what I wrote to them:
That feeling of being disgusted is actually some form of optimization itself. Disgust is a feeling that is utilized for many things, that we perceive as negative. It was probably easier for evolution to rewire when to feel disgusted, instead of creating a new feeling. The point is that that feeling that arises is supposed to change your behavior steering you in certain directions. I.e. it redirects what you are optimizing for. For example, it could make you think about why trying to optimize for things directly using explicit objectives is actually a bad thing. But the value judgment comes first. You first feel disgusted, and then you try to combat in some way the thing that you are disgusted by and try to come up with reasons why it is bad. So it is ironic that one can feel disgusted at optimization when feeling disgusted is part of an optimization process itself.
[edited]
We were talking about maximizing positive and minimizing negative conscious experiences. I guess with the implicit assumption that we could find some specification of this objective that we would find satisfactory (one that would not have unintended consequences when implemented).
It’s understandable to feel disgust at some visible optimization processes, while not feeling disgust at others, especially ones that aren’t perceived as intrusive or overbearing. And that could easily lead to disgust at the INTENT to optimize in simple/legible ways, without as much disgust for complex equilibrium-based optimizations that don’t have human design behind them.
Yes. There are lots of optimization processes built into us humans, but they feel natural to us, or we simply don’t notice them. Stating something that you want to optimize for, especially if it is something that seems to impose itself on the entire structure of the universe, is not natural for humans. And that goal, if implemented would restrict the individual’s freedoms. And that humans really don’t like.
I think this all makes sense when you are trying to live together in a society, but I am not sure if we should blindly extrapolate these intuitions to determine what we want in the far future.
I’m pretty sure we shouldn’t. Note that “blindly” is a pretty biased way to describe something if you’re not trying to skew the discussion. I’m pretty sure we shouldn’t even knowingly and carefully extrapolate these intuitions terribly far into the future. I’m not sure whether we have a choice, though—it seems believable that a pure laissez-faire attitude toward future values leads to dystopia or extinction.
The “Fu*k it” justification
Sometimes people seem to say “fuk it” towards some particular thing. I think this is a way to justify one’s intuitions. You intuitively feel like you should not care about something, but you actually can’t put your intuition into words. Except you can say “fuk it” to convey your conclusion, without any justification. “Because it’s cool” is similar.
Newcomb: Can’t do whats optimal
You have a system, that can predict perfectly what you will do in the future. It presents you with two opaque boxes. If you take both boxes, then it will place in one box 10$ and in the other 0$. If you will take only one box, then it will place in one box 10$ and in the other 1,000,000$. The system does not use its predictive power to predict which box you will choose, but only to determine if you choose one or two boxes. It uses a random number generator to determine where to place which amount of dollars.
This is a modified version of Newcomb’s problem.
Imagine that you are an agent that can reliably pre-commit to an action. Now imagine you pre-commit to taking only one box in such a way, that it makes it impossible for you to not uphold that commitment. Now if you choose a box, and get 10$, you know that the other box contains 1,000,000$ for sure.
In fact, I do not. This (like Newcomb) doesn’t tell me anything about the world.
In this set-up, what does the pre-commitment imagination do for us? The system predicts correctly whether I pre-commit or not, right?
The interesting thing is that you can end up in a scenario where you actually know that the other box contains 1,000,000$ for sure. The one that you did not pick. Although you can’t take it because of the pre-commitment mechanism. And this pre-commitment mechanism is the only thing that prevents you from taking it. The thing that I found interesting is that such a situation can arise.
Also of course there is no system in reality that can predict you perfectly, but this is about an idealised scenario that is relevant because there are systems that can predict you with more than 50% accuracy.
This is a crux for me. In such worlds where this prediction is possible, you can no longer say “because of” and really know that’s true. I suspect the precommittment mechanism is the way you KNOW that you can’t take the box, but it’s not why you can’t take the box.
I don’t really get that. For example, you could put a cryptographic lock on the box (let’s assume there is no way around it without the key), and then throw away the key. It seems that now you actually are not able to access the box, because you do not have the key. And you can also at the same time know that this is the case.
Not sure why this should be impossible to say.
Sure, there are any number of commitment mechanisms which would be hard (or NP-hard) to bypass. If the prediction and box-content selection was performed by Omega based on that cause, then fine. If instead, it was based on a more complete modeling of the universe, REGARDLESS of whether the visible mechanism “could” be bypassed, then there are other causes than that mechanism.
There could be but there does not need to be, I would say. Or maybe I really do not get what you are talking about. It could really be that if the cryptographic lock was not in place, that then you could take the box, and there is nothing else that prevents you from doing this. I guess I have an implicit model where I look at the world from a cartesian perspective. So is what you’re saying about counterfactuals, and that I am using them in a way that is not valid, and that I do not acknowledge this?
I think my main point is that “because” is a tricky word to use normally, and gets downright weird in a universe that includes Omega levels of predictions about actions that feel “free” from the agent.
If Omega made the prediction, that means Omega sees the actual future, regardless of causality or intent or agent-visible commitment mechanisms.
Don’t Stop Crying
Haha, just kidding. Laugh your ass off, even when you know you are going to die.
Hypothesis: There are policies that are good at steering the world according to arbitrary objectives, that have low Kolmogorov complexity.
It is systems that implement these policies efficiently that we should be scared of, as systems that implement policies without low Kolmogorov complexity would be computationally intractable, and therefore we can only end up with systems that are approximating these policies. Therefore these systems would not actually be that good at steering the world according to arbitrary objectives. Shallow pattern recognition objects are of this form.
Systems that don’t manage to implement the policy efficiently would probably mostly not be computationally tractable (every policy can be represented with a lookup table which definitely would be computationally intractable for the real world). Every program that can be practically run that implements the policy would basically be just as dangerous as the shortest program encoding the policy.