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Si­mu­lacrum Levels

TagLast edit: 26 Dec 2023 7:48 UTC by Yoav Ravid

Simulacrum Levels are a framework for analyzing different motivations people can have for making statements.

One way to test which level someone is on is what would make them say the opposite of what they say now:

More descriptions of the four levels:

By Strawperson:

By Zvi:

A concrete example of the above from Michael Vassar:

Zvi describes the four children of the Seder (Passover) as the four (and one extra) simulacrum levels:

“The wicked understand, acknowledge and value the Wise—they depend on the Wise for their own cynical gain. The simple don’t see the point of wisdom. Those who do not know how to ask don’t even know wisdom is a thing.” —The Four Children of the Seder as the Simulacra Levels


The origin of this framework is in Simulacra and Simulation by sociologist Jean Baudrillard.

Si­mu­lacra Levels and their Interactions

Zvi15 Jun 2020 13:10 UTC
198 points
50 comments17 min readLW link1 review
(thezvi.wordpress.com)

Unify­ing the Si­mu­lacra Definitions

Zvi3 Aug 2020 12:10 UTC
84 points
31 comments12 min readLW link
(thezvi.wordpress.com)

The Four Chil­dren of the Seder as the Si­mu­lacra Levels

Zvi7 Sep 2020 15:00 UTC
81 points
17 comments16 min readLW link1 review
(thezvi.wordpress.com)

Si­mu­lacra and Subjectivity

Benquo5 Mar 2020 16:25 UTC
97 points
33 comments3 min readLW link2 reviews
(benjaminrosshoffman.com)

Nega­tive Feed­back and Simulacra

Elizabeth29 Apr 2020 2:00 UTC
152 points
24 comments9 min readLW link1 review
(acesounderglass.com)

On Nega­tive Feed­back and Simulacra

Zvi3 May 2020 17:00 UTC
47 points
7 comments29 min readLW link
(thezvi.wordpress.com)

A sketch of ‘Si­mu­lacra Levels and their In­ter­ac­tions’

Yoav Ravid4 Aug 2020 9:13 UTC
44 points
2 comments1 min readLW link

Sig­nal­ling & Simulacra

abramdemski14 Nov 2020 19:24 UTC
62 points
30 comments5 min readLW link

Si­mu­lacra Levels Summary

Zvi30 Jan 2023 13:40 UTC
72 points
14 comments7 min readLW link
(thezvi.wordpress.com)

Si­mu­lacrum 3 As Stag-Hunt Strategy

johnswentworth26 Jan 2021 19:40 UTC
183 points
37 comments4 min readLW link3 reviews

A Crisper Ex­pla­na­tion of Si­mu­lacrum Levels

Thane Ruthenis23 Dec 2023 22:13 UTC
83 points
13 comments13 min readLW link

[Question] What con­fu­sions do peo­ple have about simu­lacrum lev­els?

johnswentworth14 Dec 2020 20:20 UTC
28 points
31 comments1 min readLW link

Ex­cerpts from a larger dis­cus­sion about simulacra

Benquo10 Apr 2019 21:27 UTC
53 points
40 comments6 min readLW link5 reviews
(benjaminrosshoffman.com)

18 pos­si­ble mean­ings of “I Like Red”

ozziegooen23 Aug 2021 23:25 UTC
29 points
14 comments3 min readLW link

A case study in simu­lacra lev­els and the Four Chil­dren of the Seder

DirectedEvolution14 Sep 2020 22:31 UTC
32 points
1 comment4 min readLW link

[Question] What is meant by Si­mul­cra Levels?

Chris_Leong17 Jun 2020 2:20 UTC
21 points
17 comments1 min readLW link1 review

Si­mu­lacrum Levels of Trust

alkexr30 Jun 2021 10:14 UTC
21 points
1 comment3 min readLW link

We should not raise awareness

lsusr1 Mar 2021 8:46 UTC
36 points
21 comments2 min readLW link

Notes on Innocence

David Gross26 Jan 2024 14:45 UTC
12 points
21 comments19 min readLW link

Blame games

Benquo6 May 2019 2:38 UTC
45 points
13 comments7 min readLW link
(benjaminrosshoffman.com)

My ver­sion of Si­mu­lacra Levels

Daniel Kokotajlo26 Apr 2023 15:50 UTC
41 points
14 comments3 min readLW link

“Ob­jec­tive vs So­cial Real­ity” vs “Si­mu­lacra 1/​3″

Raemon17 Mar 2021 22:15 UTC
27 points
5 comments1 min readLW link

Face­book is Si­mu­lacra Level 3, An­dreessen is Level 4

Ben Pace28 Apr 2021 17:38 UTC
51 points
12 comments2 min readLW link

Can crimes be dis­cussed liter­ally?

Benquo22 Mar 2020 20:17 UTC
102 points
38 comments2 min readLW link3 reviews
(benjaminrosshoffman.com)

How to Bounded Distrust

Zvi9 Jan 2023 13:10 UTC
119 points
15 comments4 min readLW link
(thezvi.wordpress.com)

Shut­ting Down the Light­cone Offices

14 Mar 2023 22:47 UTC
338 points
94 comments17 min readLW link

Night­mare of the Perfectly Principled

Benquo2 Nov 2017 9:10 UTC
14 points
14 comments8 min readLW link
(benjaminrosshoffman.com)

Ap­ply­ing simu­lacrum lev­els to hob­bies, in­ter­ests and goals

DMMF17 Mar 2024 16:18 UTC
14 points
2 comments4 min readLW link
(danfrank.ca)

Hufflepuff Cynicism

abramdemski13 Feb 2018 2:15 UTC
25 points
17 comments6 min readLW link

Blatant lies are the best kind!

Benquo3 Jul 2019 20:45 UTC
28 points
17 comments5 min readLW link
(benjaminrosshoffman.com)

Kinds of Motivation

Sable13 Jul 2024 15:52 UTC
5 points
0 comments7 min readLW link
(affablyevil.substack.com)

Imag­ine a world where Microsoft em­ploy­ees used Bing

Christopher King31 Mar 2023 18:36 UTC
6 points
2 comments2 min readLW link

“You’re the most beau­tiful girl in the world” and Wittgen­stei­nian Lan­guage Games

Chris_Leong20 Apr 2024 14:54 UTC
4 points
18 comments1 min readLW link

The Dark Mir­a­cle of Optics

Suspended Reason24 Jun 2020 3:09 UTC
27 points
5 comments8 min readLW link

Ac­tors and scribes, words and deeds

Benquo26 Apr 2017 5:12 UTC
31 points
5 comments9 min readLW link
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