Nicely written and self-aware, thanks for sharing. I recommend getting drunk at a bar! (Not a sports bar. You wouldn’t have much to talk about. I recommend taking a mixed-gender group of friends and deliberately mingling with other such groups, trying your best to Get To Know Folks.) You were doing the sandcastle thing.
okay, i have questions. i go to nice cocktail places with friends sometimes and i have never seen people mingle with other groups, or attempt to really do so myself, except with particularly chatty bartenders.
what sort of bars are good for this?
do you just tell your friends that you are going to a bar with the deliberate intention of mingling with other groups at the bar? are most people game for that? how many friends should you take?
at the bar, how do you know which groups of people are open to talking to another group and which groups are not?
isn’t it awkward if it turns out you don’t like the other group?
isn’t it awkward if you are just making the rounds, speaking to one group after another?
how do you even talk and get to know people when the music is so loud?
A bar with extremely valuable and special table estate, where tables are not assigned but rather bargoers sit wherever is open; and where it is at least a little unpleasant to be at the special table estate.
Now that I’ve written that condition, I’m not sure this exists outside of my example? But here is my example.
There is a bar in Minneapolis where the outside portion is open all winter. They have tables, at standing/stool height, with fires inset into the middle of the tables for warmth. There are 6 such tables, and 500 bargoers. But most of the people are inside, and the tables are never packed (cuz it’s cold, and because it’s an arcade bar and there are no arcade games outside).
If a fire table is free, you sit at it. People will come and ask if they can sit at it too. They’ll feel obligated to talk to you, since they’re at your table.
If a fire table has people, but there’s space (which is typically true), go and ask if you can stand there. The answer is always yes. Once you get situated, say “so how’s it going?” or “what are your names?”
My buddy and I used to do this a lot and it always worked. I once had a flagging date around the corner from the place, I liked her but we had run out of conversation, so I brought her there and we sat at a fire table and within 20 minutes the entire management staff of a retail store at the mall (??) was at our table talking with us.
love how game you are. and admittedly it differs regionally, but this can / should / does work. you haven’t seen people mingle with others because (i’m guessing) it’s hard to tell when “two groups are mingling” in a way that’s distinct from a single group hanging out. (also in fact people do this MUCH less than they used to, but they’re not much less open to it.)
i recommend college or post-college bars, followed by mixed-gender dive bars. or basement shows / unofficial bars. cocktail places are probably bad for this, they are real into Adult Alienation TM. fanciness is generally a barrier. the minglability can be roughly sussed out from the alcohol:
punch (caution!!) > seltzers and cheap beer > craft beers, whiskeys, and applebees-tier cocktails > cocktails > wine
but ensure that the bar has quiet and also has loud. that’s the most important part. the presence of darts, pool, or food also helps give “handles” for conversation.
as for whom to bring and who is game for this… hard to say. varies by friends. the cost of asking is zero, though. (if you have friends who make the cost of asking nonzero, you have exhausting friends!) but yeah, if you have rat-y, great books-y friends, tell them “i am explicitly gonna go try to talk to folks at bars, as i think i’m missing something about the world. we’ll get smashing drunk. it’ll be great.” and if they are not into that… well, try alone, i guess? also get some more adventuresome friends!
similarly, the cost of asking people who Aren’t About It is zero. such folks are, in bars and high drunkenness, really rare! most folks are friendly! (in my experience, which is Virginia, NJ and NYC.) Do not underestimate the lubricant effect of alcohol. but also, if you don’t like the other group, it is SO EASY to take advantage of noise, getting something from the bar, etc., to detach.
if you’re just making the rounds, speaking to one group after another… this is unlikely, but also, NOBODY IS WATCHING. it is so hard to keep tabs on strangers in a bar, even if you’re trying!
and how do you talk and get to know people when the music is so loud—go somewhere loud-ish—such that folks are forced to speak up and perhaps articulate more—but not somewhere that’s so loud it’s “clearly for dancing.” (it is possible to have incredibly compressed shouted conversations, but they’re not very rewarding most of the time.)
GENERAL PRINCIPLES: men are easier to approach than women. people afford you more social latitude if you’re drunk and if they’re drunk. to a first approximation, nobody is paying attention to you unless you talk to them. and everyone loves to talk about themselves.
if you live in NYC, New Haven, or Princeton, hit me up and i am happy to take you. EDIT: nvm I see you’re Toronting atm. I cannot speak to Canadians’ dispositions, but surely the politeness helps!
thank you for going into so much detail, i appreciate it! will triangulate some bars that fit this profile and try to organize a pub crawl or something 🫡
100%! I encourage you to do so. have a soda to give yourself something to do with your hands. give yourself permission to *act drunk*, i.e., be loud, direct, shameless, goofy, emotional, etc.----other people’s drunkenness can easily “rub off” on you.
Some of my experiences meeting people at bars when going with one or more friends:
With two friends in a lefty bar in Berlin. We started talking French, the group next to us joined our conversation because they spoke French too.
In another lefty bar, as part of a weekly meetup of an online social group. This group evolved all the time, so there was a smooth boundary between regulars we knew, newbies to the group, and people just in the bar, so we could smoothly move to conversations with random people.
With a friend at a nerd bar in Paris. We decided to play a board game, chose one for four people, and asked the group of two next to us if they wanted to join.
In queer bars in Paris, generally when I come with a friend, we say hi to someone alone, and start talking with them. (people alone at bars are probably waiting for someone to chat!)
at the bar, how do you know which groups of people are open to talking to another group and which groups are not?
I usually just ask. I also have good intuitions of which groups might be open to chatting, like groups with a more casual “we’re just chilling” vibe, who are taking breaks in their conversations and looking around at who’s in the bar. Usually, the moment when they’re scanning is a good time to approach.
what sort of bars are good for this?
The bars where people go to meet new people. In my experience, it’s the ones that have more of a third space vibe, where people go there just to chill, read a book, relax after their work day, attend an event there. I think a sufficient condition to check if it’s a good place to meet new people is if there are people not part of a group, who are sitting alone.
isn’t it awkward if it turns out you don’t like the other group?
isn’t it awkward if you are just making the rounds, speaking to one group after another?
how do you even talk and get to know people when the music is so loud?
Those would only happen in a bar that’s not the right place to meet people anyway. In my experience, in bars where people are here to be open to new encounters, they’re also expecting people to move in and out of conversations as they please. And in those bars, the music is never an issue (either none, low volume, or people are drunk and talking louder than the music anyway)
I think the meta-point is that these are great questions, and are reasons that going to a bar and chatting people up is actually a high skill activity with a fairly high bar (ahem) to clear. Most activities attended by most people most of the time are either gated behind such skill checks or invitation only. A recurring philosophy meetup carefully engineered to have no such bar is actually a super specific and rare thing. If you kept considering events, and then rejecting them based on the sorts of questions listed here (i.e. they seemed intimidating or hard) until you came across an event which raised no such issues, that seems like it should lead rather reliably to out of distribution results.
yeah, i might acclimatize to worse waters faster if i i’m not in the habit of rolling my own weekly rationality meetups which are precisely the social environment that i enjoy most.
but as mentioned in a prev comment, if the end result of that is me turning evil when i try to interact with normal folks, that seems worth trying to address.
(uh, flagging that i’m not entirely following the thesis of your comment, but i’m responding to the last line of it.)
class UnselectiveEvent(SelectiveEvent): def try_to_join(self, skill_q): self.members.append(skill_q) return True
events = [SelectiveEvent() for _ in range(99)] + [UnselectiveEvent()]
for _ in range(1000): society_member = random.random() while not random.choice(events).try_to_join(society_member): pass print(np.mean(events[-1].members)) # e.g. 0.13823472583179908 ```
I augmented the code a bit to get the mean and stddev of the SELECTIVE events to illustrate how far out of distribution the UNselective event would predictably be...
$ ./selection_events.py What skill profile over the SELECTIVE events? N = 98 // Stddev = 0.20449118563464222 // mean = 0.6569978446874036 What is the average skill in THE UNSELECTIVE event 0.1496967789384321
Nicely written and self-aware, thanks for sharing. I recommend getting drunk at a bar! (Not a sports bar. You wouldn’t have much to talk about. I recommend taking a mixed-gender group of friends and deliberately mingling with other such groups, trying your best to Get To Know Folks.) You were doing the sandcastle thing.
okay, i have questions. i go to nice cocktail places with friends sometimes and i have never seen people mingle with other groups, or attempt to really do so myself, except with particularly chatty bartenders.
what sort of bars are good for this?
do you just tell your friends that you are going to a bar with the deliberate intention of mingling with other groups at the bar? are most people game for that? how many friends should you take?
at the bar, how do you know which groups of people are open to talking to another group and which groups are not?
isn’t it awkward if it turns out you don’t like the other group?
isn’t it awkward if you are just making the rounds, speaking to one group after another?
how do you even talk and get to know people when the music is so loud?
A bar with extremely valuable and special table estate, where tables are not assigned but rather bargoers sit wherever is open; and where it is at least a little unpleasant to be at the special table estate.
Now that I’ve written that condition, I’m not sure this exists outside of my example? But here is my example.
There is a bar in Minneapolis where the outside portion is open all winter. They have tables, at standing/stool height, with fires inset into the middle of the tables for warmth. There are 6 such tables, and 500 bargoers. But most of the people are inside, and the tables are never packed (cuz it’s cold, and because it’s an arcade bar and there are no arcade games outside).
If a fire table is free, you sit at it. People will come and ask if they can sit at it too. They’ll feel obligated to talk to you, since they’re at your table.
If a fire table has people, but there’s space (which is typically true), go and ask if you can stand there. The answer is always yes. Once you get situated, say “so how’s it going?” or “what are your names?”
My buddy and I used to do this a lot and it always worked. I once had a flagging date around the corner from the place, I liked her but we had run out of conversation, so I brought her there and we sat at a fire table and within 20 minutes the entire management staff of a retail store at the mall (??) was at our table talking with us.
love how game you are. and admittedly it differs regionally, but this can / should / does work. you haven’t seen people mingle with others because (i’m guessing) it’s hard to tell when “two groups are mingling” in a way that’s distinct from a single group hanging out. (also in fact people do this MUCH less than they used to, but they’re not much less open to it.)
i recommend college or post-college bars, followed by mixed-gender dive bars. or basement shows / unofficial bars. cocktail places are probably bad for this, they are real into Adult Alienation TM. fanciness is generally a barrier. the minglability can be roughly sussed out from the alcohol:
punch (caution!!) > seltzers and cheap beer > craft beers, whiskeys, and applebees-tier cocktails > cocktails > wine
but ensure that the bar has quiet and also has loud. that’s the most important part. the presence of darts, pool, or food also helps give “handles” for conversation.
as for whom to bring and who is game for this… hard to say. varies by friends. the cost of asking is zero, though. (if you have friends who make the cost of asking nonzero, you have exhausting friends!) but yeah, if you have rat-y, great books-y friends, tell them “i am explicitly gonna go try to talk to folks at bars, as i think i’m missing something about the world. we’ll get smashing drunk. it’ll be great.” and if they are not into that… well, try alone, i guess? also get some more adventuresome friends!
similarly, the cost of asking people who Aren’t About It is zero. such folks are, in bars and high drunkenness, really rare! most folks are friendly! (in my experience, which is Virginia, NJ and NYC.) Do not underestimate the lubricant effect of alcohol. but also, if you don’t like the other group, it is SO EASY to take advantage of noise, getting something from the bar, etc., to detach.
if you’re just making the rounds, speaking to one group after another… this is unlikely, but also, NOBODY IS WATCHING. it is so hard to keep tabs on strangers in a bar, even if you’re trying!
and how do you talk and get to know people when the music is so loud—go somewhere loud-ish—such that folks are forced to speak up and perhaps articulate more—but not somewhere that’s so loud it’s “clearly for dancing.” (it is possible to have incredibly compressed shouted conversations, but they’re not very rewarding most of the time.)
GENERAL PRINCIPLES: men are easier to approach than women. people afford you more social latitude if you’re drunk and if they’re drunk. to a first approximation, nobody is paying attention to you unless you talk to them. and everyone loves to talk about themselves.
if you live in NYC, New Haven, or Princeton, hit me up and i am happy to take you. EDIT: nvm I see you’re Toronting atm. I cannot speak to Canadians’ dispositions, but surely the politeness helps!
thank you for going into so much detail, i appreciate it! will triangulate some bars that fit this profile and try to organize a pub crawl or something 🫡
Is it okay to hang out at a bar if you don’t drink?
100%! I encourage you to do so. have a soda to give yourself something to do with your hands. give yourself permission to *act drunk*, i.e., be loud, direct, shameless, goofy, emotional, etc.----other people’s drunkenness can easily “rub off” on you.
Some of my experiences meeting people at bars when going with one or more friends:
With two friends in a lefty bar in Berlin. We started talking French, the group next to us joined our conversation because they spoke French too.
In another lefty bar, as part of a weekly meetup of an online social group. This group evolved all the time, so there was a smooth boundary between regulars we knew, newbies to the group, and people just in the bar, so we could smoothly move to conversations with random people.
With a friend at a nerd bar in Paris. We decided to play a board game, chose one for four people, and asked the group of two next to us if they wanted to join.
In queer bars in Paris, generally when I come with a friend, we say hi to someone alone, and start talking with them. (people alone at bars are probably waiting for someone to chat!)
I usually just ask. I also have good intuitions of which groups might be open to chatting, like groups with a more casual “we’re just chilling” vibe, who are taking breaks in their conversations and looking around at who’s in the bar. Usually, the moment when they’re scanning is a good time to approach.
The bars where people go to meet new people. In my experience, it’s the ones that have more of a third space vibe, where people go there just to chill, read a book, relax after their work day, attend an event there. I think a sufficient condition to check if it’s a good place to meet new people is if there are people not part of a group, who are sitting alone.
Those would only happen in a bar that’s not the right place to meet people anyway. In my experience, in bars where people are here to be open to new encounters, they’re also expecting people to move in and out of conversations as they please. And in those bars, the music is never an issue (either none, low volume, or people are drunk and talking louder than the music anyway)
I think the meta-point is that these are great questions, and are reasons that going to a bar and chatting people up is actually a high skill activity with a fairly high bar (ahem) to clear. Most activities attended by most people most of the time are either gated behind such skill checks or invitation only. A recurring philosophy meetup carefully engineered to have no such bar is actually a super specific and rare thing. If you kept considering events, and then rejecting them based on the sorts of questions listed here (i.e. they seemed intimidating or hard) until you came across an event which raised no such issues, that seems like it should lead rather reliably to out of distribution results.
yeah, i might acclimatize to worse waters faster if i i’m not in the habit of rolling my own weekly rationality meetups which are precisely the social environment that i enjoy most.
but as mentioned in a prev comment, if the end result of that is me turning evil when i try to interact with normal folks, that seems worth trying to address.
(uh, flagging that i’m not entirely following the thesis of your comment, but i’m responding to the last line of it.)
Sorry, I am not the best at expressing myself clearly in prose. This is closer to what I was actually thinking, is it more helpful?
```
import random
import numpy as np
class SelectiveEvent:
def __init__(self):
self.members = []
self.skill_check = random.random()
def try_to_join(self, skill_q):
if skill_q > self.skill_check:
self.members.append(skill_q)
return True
return False
class UnselectiveEvent(SelectiveEvent):
def try_to_join(self, skill_q):
self.members.append(skill_q)
return True
events = [SelectiveEvent() for _ in range(99)] + [UnselectiveEvent()]
for _ in range(1000):
society_member = random.random()
while not random.choice(events).try_to_join(society_member):
pass
print(np.mean(events[-1].members))
# e.g. 0.13823472583179908
```
this is the most lesswrong thing i’ve ever seen. never change
I augmented the code a bit to get the mean and stddev of the SELECTIVE events to illustrate how far out of distribution the UNselective event would predictably be...
$ ./selection_events.py
What skill profile over the SELECTIVE events?
N = 98 // Stddev = 0.20449118563464222 // mean = 0.6569978446874036
What is the average skill in THE UNSELECTIVE event
0.1496967789384321
Two and a half standard deviations worse!