a lot of commenters are telling me that despite being the tiniest baby tree frog i should hit up a sports bar instead.
a few things
the reason I found myself at the philosophy meetup is because I am bad at most forms of normie social interaction and I have no clue how to break into a conversation anywhere else.
I agree that public philosophy meetups attract midwits, but I do think it’s genuinely problematic if one cannot interact with university educated midwits without turning evil
I also think there’s less countersignalling at the meetup than most people are assuming; it was actually quite granolaish in nature and people were trying to earnestly resolve questions around evolving social norms and applying their own life experiences in order to do so. people were vulnerable and forthright. they just also sucked ass at reasoning
It doesn’t matter what people say. You basically don’t even talk. It just matters how good people are at dancing.
But also, they generally like teaching beginners, because the beginners get pretty good within a few weeks or months of regular attendance, and then there are more good dance partners, and that makes lots of people happy because they LIKE DANCING.
Yes!!! I thought the same. I’ve recently begun swing dancing, and found it both fun and an anti-edgelord medicine. Most of my favorite folks to dance with are people who have no knowledge or interest in the intellectual ideas I care about, yet I’ve been able to learn so much from them. I think that’s been the essential thing for me.. learning from people who I likely wouldn’t enjoy conversation with otherwise. Gives me a happy glow towards humanity :))
There’s such a diverse array of perspectives, and I love how social it is without requiring actual discussion. If you want to chat, dancing is an automatic object of conversation… but you really don’t need to.
>I am bad at most forms of normie social interaction and I have no clue how to break into a conversation anywhere else.
I feel like this too. But I get sick of intellectualism sometimes, so I enjoy playing free poker at a dive bar. It’s structured, it’s not awkward to be at the table without talking, and table talk at this particular dive comes easy and I don’t have to think about how to break into conversation. Most attendees are regulars and familiarity breeds friendliness. (Of course many regulars have their own little beefs with each other, but I… well I’ve developed one beef but that’s ok, we just ignore each other).
Actually I’m so bad at breaking into conversation that I usually bring a book or walk around outside in the 20 minutes between arriving and the start of the nightly tournament!
I’m not saying “go find a free dive bar poker tournament”, but yeah, something with some structure seems good. Sitting around at a football bar hoping someone talks to you is an ok way to pass the time but not overly promising socially.
I was trying to write a line here about how poker tournament social structure is different than philosophy meetup social structure but actually the primary difference is class. None of these people have ever considered attending a philosophy meetup. Most have never visited meetup.com or would know what it was. A recent memory: the type of guy who uses the term “chinese” to mean “asian”—no offense intended, no point to be made, simply “chinese”—fits in well at this bar.
You’ve tried the middle class; your investigation isn’t complete until you’ve hung out with the lower class. (Surely that will turn things around).
The question to solve is: where can you do this in your area that doesn’t require you to sit alone and wait to be roped into a conversation, nor requires you to do some kind of distasteful “cold approach” to try and insert yourself into a group? The goal is 1) structured 2) low class.
What do you think of authentic relating / circling w/ relationalists, as opposed to rationalists? I don’t think they have particularly good epistemic hygiene (or, that is, the ones that do I think become rationalists also) but I think they might have a way to embody philanthropy which is easier to tune into (than one based on, like, respecting the competence or thoughtfulness of humans as they are).
Maybe you should try an anime convention or Comic-Con instead? (Assuming you have any interest in geeky entertainment topics...)
But yeah, having an experience akin to being a world class musician listening to a middle school band and cringing at how bad they sounded must not have been pleasant.
not a bad instinct, the only non-rationalist non-work convention i went to last year was dashcon 2, and that was great. still suffered some amount of psychic damage from the requisite amount of code switching and ambient poor epistemic hygiene, but there was enough novelty on offer to make up for it, and i ended up finding some really interesting folks to hang out with :)
it’s not a pure solution in that what i’d like to do is to increase the % of people i feel like i can talk to, and so being like “oh yeah and at this several hundred person convention i found one or two people i click with” is like… sort of consolation prize shaped?
I think most people have trouble finding people at conventions they can click with, at least for longer than a few minutes, simply because of how hectic and overwhelming things can get...
I once attended an event run by and for the lowest of the lower class. It was absolutely horrifying. I cannot begin to describe to you how much of a culture shock it was to me. Attitudes and actions from 70 years ago, along with fragrant flouting of good sense, basic hygiene practises and law.
I also love humanity, but recognise the vast majority of us as mentally developed as young children, its hard to develop if no one around you is a good example and there is no incentive. I feel through that framing you can feel positively toward them, but without it I’m not so sure.
If you don’t go to that sports bar, you will remain a “tiniest baby tree frog”, go, learn, grow.
“they just also sucked ass at reasoning”—did they claim to be trying to reason? There are plenty of forms of discussion other than reasoning, and it’s also possible you are a fan of only one of multiple flavors of reasoning and dismiss the practice of other forms.
recommend finding your most sports-watching friend, and asking to tag along the next time they watch sports. sports bars are loud and obnoxious; home viewings can be fun and cheerful. i suspect your wit and humor would be greatly appreciated by the other attendees!
a lot of commenters are telling me that despite being the tiniest baby tree frog i should hit up a sports bar instead.
a few things
the reason I found myself at the philosophy meetup is because I am bad at most forms of normie social interaction and I have no clue how to break into a conversation anywhere else.
I agree that public philosophy meetups attract midwits, but I do think it’s genuinely problematic if one cannot interact with university educated midwits without turning evil
I also think there’s less countersignalling at the meetup than most people are assuming; it was actually quite granolaish in nature and people were trying to earnestly resolve questions around evolving social norms and applying their own life experiences in order to do so. people were vulnerable and forthright. they just also sucked ass at reasoning
Have you tried swing dancing or something similar? It teaches you a physical skill, gets you out of your brain and into your body, and is more effective for treating depression (if you ever find yourself in need of such) than Prozac!
It doesn’t matter what people say. You basically don’t even talk. It just matters how good people are at dancing.
But also, they generally like teaching beginners, because the beginners get pretty good within a few weeks or months of regular attendance, and then there are more good dance partners, and that makes lots of people happy because they LIKE DANCING.
Yes!!! I thought the same. I’ve recently begun swing dancing, and found it both fun and an anti-edgelord medicine. Most of my favorite folks to dance with are people who have no knowledge or interest in the intellectual ideas I care about, yet I’ve been able to learn so much from them. I think that’s been the essential thing for me.. learning from people who I likely wouldn’t enjoy conversation with otherwise. Gives me a happy glow towards humanity :))
There’s such a diverse array of perspectives, and I love how social it is without requiring actual discussion. If you want to chat, dancing is an automatic object of conversation… but you really don’t need to.
>I am bad at most forms of normie social interaction and I have no clue how to break into a conversation anywhere else.
I feel like this too. But I get sick of intellectualism sometimes, so I enjoy playing free poker at a dive bar. It’s structured, it’s not awkward to be at the table without talking, and table talk at this particular dive comes easy and I don’t have to think about how to break into conversation. Most attendees are regulars and familiarity breeds friendliness. (Of course many regulars have their own little beefs with each other, but I… well I’ve developed one beef but that’s ok, we just ignore each other).
Actually I’m so bad at breaking into conversation that I usually bring a book or walk around outside in the 20 minutes between arriving and the start of the nightly tournament!
I’m not saying “go find a free dive bar poker tournament”, but yeah, something with some structure seems good. Sitting around at a football bar hoping someone talks to you is an ok way to pass the time but not overly promising socially.
I was trying to write a line here about how poker tournament social structure is different than philosophy meetup social structure but actually the primary difference is class. None of these people have ever considered attending a philosophy meetup. Most have never visited meetup.com or would know what it was. A recent memory: the type of guy who uses the term “chinese” to mean “asian”—no offense intended, no point to be made, simply “chinese”—fits in well at this bar.
You’ve tried the middle class; your investigation isn’t complete until you’ve hung out with the lower class. (Surely that will turn things around).
The question to solve is: where can you do this in your area that doesn’t require you to sit alone and wait to be roped into a conversation, nor requires you to do some kind of distasteful “cold approach” to try and insert yourself into a group? The goal is 1) structured 2) low class.
What do you think of authentic relating / circling w/ relationalists, as opposed to rationalists? I don’t think they have particularly good epistemic hygiene (or, that is, the ones that do I think become rationalists also) but I think they might have a way to embody philanthropy which is easier to tune into (than one based on, like, respecting the competence or thoughtfulness of humans as they are).
Maybe you should try an anime convention or Comic-Con instead? (Assuming you have any interest in geeky entertainment topics...)
But yeah, having an experience akin to being a world class musician listening to a middle school band and cringing at how bad they sounded must not have been pleasant.
not a bad instinct, the only non-rationalist non-work convention i went to last year was dashcon 2, and that was great. still suffered some amount of psychic damage from the requisite amount of code switching and ambient poor epistemic hygiene, but there was enough novelty on offer to make up for it, and i ended up finding some really interesting folks to hang out with :)
it’s not a pure solution in that what i’d like to do is to increase the % of people i feel like i can talk to, and so being like “oh yeah and at this several hundred person convention i found one or two people i click with” is like… sort of consolation prize shaped?
Possibly stupid question: what do you think would happen if you tried to connect with and talk to literal children?
i would like to know where this question leads, since i in principle like children and animals and yet have no idea what to do with them
I think most people have trouble finding people at conventions they can click with, at least for longer than a few minutes, simply because of how hectic and overwhelming things can get...
I once attended an event run by and for the lowest of the lower class. It was absolutely horrifying. I cannot begin to describe to you how much of a culture shock it was to me. Attitudes and actions from 70 years ago, along with fragrant flouting of good sense, basic hygiene practises and law.
I also love humanity, but recognise the vast majority of us as mentally developed as young children, its hard to develop if no one around you is a good example and there is no incentive. I feel through that framing you can feel positively toward them, but without it I’m not so sure.
If you don’t go to that sports bar, you will remain a “tiniest baby tree frog”, go, learn, grow.
“they just also sucked ass at reasoning”—did they claim to be trying to reason? There are plenty of forms of discussion other than reasoning, and it’s also possible you are a fan of only one of multiple flavors of reasoning and dismiss the practice of other forms.
recommend finding your most sports-watching friend, and asking to tag along the next time they watch sports. sports bars are loud and obnoxious; home viewings can be fun and cheerful. i suspect your wit and humor would be greatly appreciated by the other attendees!