I think this is negative, for the reasons stated in my original reply to Eli.
I think the distinction Eli is drawing is great, and apt, and useful, and I definitely like having it highlighted and laid-out as in this post. I do not want to erase this distinction; I very much want good words to track it.
But I think if we solidify “public beliefs” and “private beliefs” as jargon, in accordance with the definitions given in the post, we’re going to erode our ability (both as a community and as individuals) to see that these are not the two buckets. It’s enforcing/strengthening a bucket error, that beliefs not spoken aloud are private-in-the-way-Eli-describes (i.e. illegible), and will make people more likely to assume that anything not expressible in public is also not explicit or rigorous in the thinker’s own head.
I did not have an alternate proposal on terminology, but this seems like a place where human nature and common word usage are going to bite us in a pretty predictable fashion/seems like a place where it’s not going to be easy to get people to use the terms precisely in the way that we want that would head off the confusion.
Hoping I’m wrong; happy to make small bets.
EDIT: just went through the comments and I can see this confusion already popping up in multiple threads.
Mmm. I think when I curated this I had not been thinking in terms of the jargon here being optimal, and more been thinking about “the concepts here seem like they’re getting at something important.” (I didn’t have a strong opinion on the jargon one way or another at the time)
I think some of the comments here have updated me towards “this post is more of an intermediate stage of grappling with the concepts its gesturing at, than the final form I’d like them to crystallize as”. I think I still endorse curating it (things don’t need to be perfect to get curated)
(Maybe also worth noting re: the curation decision: it so happens I’m somewhat subsidizing rationality content when curating this-particular-month, because there’s been a huge upswelling of AI content on LessWrong that feels like it’s drowning out everything else and it seemed important to signal boost rationality discussion. I think the post was good enough to curate without that, but it factored into the decision to do so yesterday)
I think that we should seize this opportunity to try to get our jargon right on the fly!
I think all three of Eli, Ray, and Duncan, in particular, have a shared interest in thoughtfully shaping culture in positive directions, and we all agree that this particular jargon has some problems. Let’s do better than just letting this be, and exert some attention to see if we can get everything that we want here.
Brainstorming alternatives to “private belief”:
Idiosyncratic belief?
Personal belief?
Illegible belief
I don’t like this because it’s also not quite getting at what I want in this distinction. I might have legible argumentation, but I don’t expect it to be understandable without a bunch careful explanation and backtracking to prerequisites, and I don’t want to make the claim that others should believe this, right now.
Actually, this sort of draws out that the distinction that I want to make is less “kinds of beliefs” and more like “stance that one can take towards a belief”. I believe what I believe, but additionally there’s some social meta-data of whether I’m claiming that others should agree with me on the basis of public info.
Given that...
Argument stance vs. impression stance?
Metadata: claim of public accessibility vs. metadata: non claim of public accessibility
Obviously, these ideas are bad. Anyone want to help me generate better ones?
Certainly no answer on the terminology question but I am trying to understand how these “private beliefs” might be any different than a person’s opinion? Perhaps the distinction is in just what degree one thinks there is considered observations and thought but I’m not sure that is a sure basis. Most opinions are not just considered random thoughts and views lacking any reasonable basis by the person holding the opinion.
Perhaps the characterization of premises/evidence could be understood as more anecdotal, non-random sample observations so potentially skewed to a special case/false conclusion?
The other point you make about “understandable without a bunch of careful explanations” points to 1) a level of complexity that makes shared knowledge problematic and 2) a belief that is related to a highly specialized area so perhaps not fully able to fit into any type of public, widely shared data/knowledge set.
I might have legible argumentation, but I don’t expect it to be understandable without a bunch careful explanation and backtracking to prerequisites
That fits great with my definition of illegibility. This case sounds like you’ve clarified it enough to make it legible to yourself but not yet enough to cross inferential gaps, thus it remains illegible to other people.
this also describe math. like, the mote complicated math that have some prerequisites and person that didn’t take the courses in collage or some analog will not understand.
math, by my understanding of “legibility”, is VERY legible. same about programming, physics, and a whole bunch of explicitly lawful but complicated things.
what is your understanding about that sort of things?
I think I was unfair. I concede it’s possible to have legible argumentation that people won’t understand in a short time, even if it’s perfectly clarified in your head. But in my experiences interrogating my own beliefs, I think it’s common that they are actually not clear (you just think they are) until you can explain them to someone else, so the term “illegible belief” may help some people properly debug themselves.
Regarding your question about math and the like… The point of having the concept of epistemic legibility is that we want to be able to “debug” articles we read, and the articles should accommodate us doing that. If we cannot debug them, they’re not legible.
If your math is correct but poorly explained, I suppose I’d have to call it legible (as long as the explanations don’t lead the reader astray). I won’t want to grace it with that adjective, as I’m sure you understand, but that’s more a matter of signaling.
By contrast, it’s fine by me if you assume background knowledge, though keep in mind it’s easy to assume too much (Explainers Shoot High, Aim Low).
it sometimes happen in conversations, that people talk past each other, don’t notice that they both use the word X and mean two different things, and behave as if they agree on what X is but disagree on where to draw the boundary.
from my point of view, you said some things that make it clear you mean very different thing then me by “illegible”. prove of theorem can’t be illegible to SOMEONE. illegibility is property of the explanation, not the explanation and person. i encountered papers and posts that above my knowledge in math and computer science. i didn’t understand them despite them being legible.
you also have different approach to concepts in generally. i don’t have concept because it make is easier for people to debug. i try to find concepts that reflect the territory most precisely. that is the point of concepts TO ME.
i don’t sure it worth it go all the way back, and i have no intention go over you post and adding “to you” in all the places where it should be add, to make it clearer that goals are something people have, not property of the teritory. but if you want to do half of the work of that, we can continue this discussion.
I think this is negative, for the reasons stated in my original reply to Eli.
I think the distinction Eli is drawing is great, and apt, and useful, and I definitely like having it highlighted and laid-out as in this post. I do not want to erase this distinction; I very much want good words to track it.
But I think if we solidify “public beliefs” and “private beliefs” as jargon, in accordance with the definitions given in the post, we’re going to erode our ability (both as a community and as individuals) to see that these are not the two buckets. It’s enforcing/strengthening a bucket error, that beliefs not spoken aloud are private-in-the-way-Eli-describes (i.e. illegible), and will make people more likely to assume that anything not expressible in public is also not explicit or rigorous in the thinker’s own head.
I did not have an alternate proposal on terminology, but this seems like a place where human nature and common word usage are going to bite us in a pretty predictable fashion/seems like a place where it’s not going to be easy to get people to use the terms precisely in the way that we want that would head off the confusion.
Hoping I’m wrong; happy to make small bets.
EDIT: just went through the comments and I can see this confusion already popping up in multiple threads.
Mmm. I think when I curated this I had not been thinking in terms of the jargon here being optimal, and more been thinking about “the concepts here seem like they’re getting at something important.” (I didn’t have a strong opinion on the jargon one way or another at the time)
I think some of the comments here have updated me towards “this post is more of an intermediate stage of grappling with the concepts its gesturing at, than the final form I’d like them to crystallize as”. I think I still endorse curating it (things don’t need to be perfect to get curated)
(Maybe also worth noting re: the curation decision: it so happens I’m somewhat subsidizing rationality content when curating this-particular-month, because there’s been a huge upswelling of AI content on LessWrong that feels like it’s drowning out everything else and it seemed important to signal boost rationality discussion. I think the post was good enough to curate without that, but it factored into the decision to do so yesterday)
I think that we should seize this opportunity to try to get our jargon right on the fly!
I think all three of Eli, Ray, and Duncan, in particular, have a shared interest in thoughtfully shaping culture in positive directions, and we all agree that this particular jargon has some problems. Let’s do better than just letting this be, and exert some attention to see if we can get everything that we want here.
Brainstorming alternatives to “private belief”:
Idiosyncratic belief?
Personal belief?
Illegible belief
I don’t like this because it’s also not quite getting at what I want in this distinction. I might have legible argumentation, but I don’t expect it to be understandable without a bunch careful explanation and backtracking to prerequisites, and I don’t want to make the claim that others should believe this, right now.
Actually, this sort of draws out that the distinction that I want to make is less “kinds of beliefs” and more like “stance that one can take towards a belief”. I believe what I believe, but additionally there’s some social meta-data of whether I’m claiming that others should agree with me on the basis of public info.
Given that...
Argument stance vs. impression stance?
Metadata: claim of public accessibility vs. metadata: non claim of public accessibility
Obviously, these ideas are bad. Anyone want to help me generate better ones?
Certainly no answer on the terminology question but I am trying to understand how these “private beliefs” might be any different than a person’s opinion? Perhaps the distinction is in just what degree one thinks there is considered observations and thought but I’m not sure that is a sure basis. Most opinions are not just considered random thoughts and views lacking any reasonable basis by the person holding the opinion.
Perhaps the characterization of premises/evidence could be understood as more anecdotal, non-random sample observations so potentially skewed to a special case/false conclusion?
The other point you make about “understandable without a bunch of careful explanations” points to 1) a level of complexity that makes shared knowledge problematic and 2) a belief that is related to a highly specialized area so perhaps not fully able to fit into any type of public, widely shared data/knowledge set.
That fits great with my definition of illegibility. This case sounds like you’ve clarified it enough to make it legible to yourself but not yet enough to cross inferential gaps, thus it remains illegible to other people.
this also describe math. like, the mote complicated math that have some prerequisites and person that didn’t take the courses in collage or some analog will not understand.
math, by my understanding of “legibility”, is VERY legible. same about programming, physics, and a whole bunch of explicitly lawful but complicated things.
what is your understanding about that sort of things?
I think I was unfair. I concede it’s possible to have legible argumentation that people won’t understand in a short time, even if it’s perfectly clarified in your head. But in my experiences interrogating my own beliefs, I think it’s common that they are actually not clear (you just think they are) until you can explain them to someone else, so the term “illegible belief” may help some people properly debug themselves.
Regarding your question about math and the like… The point of having the concept of epistemic legibility is that we want to be able to “debug” articles we read, and the articles should accommodate us doing that. If we cannot debug them, they’re not legible.
If your math is correct but poorly explained, I suppose I’d have to call it legible (as long as the explanations don’t lead the reader astray). I won’t want to grace it with that adjective, as I’m sure you understand, but that’s more a matter of signaling.
By contrast, it’s fine by me if you assume background knowledge, though keep in mind it’s easy to assume too much (Explainers Shoot High, Aim Low).
it sometimes happen in conversations, that people talk past each other, don’t notice that they both use the word X and mean two different things, and behave as if they agree on what X is but disagree on where to draw the boundary.
from my point of view, you said some things that make it clear you mean very different thing then me by “illegible”. prove of theorem can’t be illegible to SOMEONE. illegibility is property of the explanation, not the explanation and person. i encountered papers and posts that above my knowledge in math and computer science. i didn’t understand them despite them being legible.
you also have different approach to concepts in generally. i don’t have concept because it make is easier for people to debug. i try to find concepts that reflect the territory most precisely. that is the point of concepts TO ME.
i don’t sure it worth it go all the way back, and i have no intention go over you post and adding “to you” in all the places where it should be add, to make it clearer that goals are something people have, not property of the teritory. but if you want to do half of the work of that, we can continue this discussion.
FWIW, I agree with you after reading the above.
Woop!