When I look at the women I know who actually ask guys out, they are consistently the ones landing especially desirable guys. For women, explicitly asking a guy out buys an absolutely enormous amount of value; it completely dwarfs any other change a typical woman can consider in terms of dating impact
...isn’t the experience of me or women I know. Asking men out leads to boyfriends who are generally passive and offload a bunch of work onto you (even when they’re BSDM tops). But I found myself not wanting to comment with this initially because I couldn’t immediately explain CNC fantasies with it.
Here are some other models that explain part of your data. None of them explain all of it, but they each explain something additional that deep nonconsent preferences don’t. Also as I typed them up I realized they explained more than I thought, but again, your initial strong frame pushed out that knowledge.
women are scared men will get angry if they go from “yes” to “no”, in a way they won’t if the woman goes from “----” to “no”, so women delay being explicit until they have all the information
“I would like to submit a formal request to touch your boob” is the lowest possible skill way to ask for consent. High skill ways are appreciated, in part because the space of boob-touching is large and you will never manage to convey sufficient detail verbally.
A partner who is good at reading you is valuable in lots of ways- perhaps valuable enough to give up a bunch of guys who would have been merely okay.
people are scared of rejection at every stage and women don’t have the same push to get over it
Gen Z men seem to have more fear/less push to get over it and indeed, AIUI aren’t asking women out very much.
this can also explain CNC fantasies- there’s no risk of owning a desire and seeing it rejected
women are disincentivized to express desire
(all models are possibilities and generalities, people are complicated, etc)
I think one thing I didn’t communicate in the post is that I don’t necessarily intend to hypothesize deep nonconsent as a terminal preference. So, for instance,
women are scared men will get angry if they go from “yes” to “no”, in a way they won’t if the woman goes from “----” to “no”, so women delay being explicit until they have all the information
sounds to me like one of many possible generators of deep nonconsent preference—i.e. it’s directly explaining why women would typically have a deep-in-the-sense-of-appearing-in-lots-of-places preference for nonconsent behavior. It therefore sounds not-at-all at odds with the post, or at least what I had in mind when writing the post.
I definitely took the original post to be describing a terminal value rather than manifestation of something deeper, if you meant instrumental that handles a lot of my objections.
But while I’m here, another data point: I’ve heard multiple young women say they won’t make explicit requests in bed because what they mean is “weight this action moderately higher among your list of options” but the dude hears “keep doing this on rote until I give you another instruction”. I haven’t heard this from anyone over 30, hopefully it means someone learned something.
Just one data point: to me your post feel shallow in a good way. I can say: “I can’t help but note how all this annoying behaviour suddenly become endearing to me when I am in love.” but it feels like I am deepening your post, not contradicting it. Am I gesturing at non-terminal property you mentioned? P.S. just noticed I am using “shallow” when there is literally “deep” in headline. Yet this is my impression.
″...isn’t the experience of me or women I know. Asking men out leads to boyfriends who are generally passive and offload a bunch of work onto you (even when they’re BSDM tops). ”
This is very interesting and a perspective I haven’t considered. Now that I think about it, the women I know who are asking man out have a mixture of outcomes, and while tend to move towards high quality partners long term (especially if they are polyamorous), they indeed complain about having had very passive exes. I suspect asking out removes the filter for proactivity and they are falling back to the base rate with higher chance of getting passive partners due to prevalence in the population. Actually even worse if we assume proactive males are sorting themselves out from the available population. (There may be some additional factor potentially contributing to passivity, but haven’t thought it through yet).
Another observation I have is that they tend to be tops or switches with top preference. Assuming John is correct about nonconsent preference being the prevalent attribute in the general population, I would say they are the inverse, with that being the minority here.
Can you gesture at what kind of data would be helpful to bring in-frame?
A big one would be that…
...isn’t the experience of me or women I know. Asking men out leads to boyfriends who are generally passive and offload a bunch of work onto you (even when they’re BSDM tops). But I found myself not wanting to comment with this initially because I couldn’t immediately explain CNC fantasies with it.
Here are some other models that explain part of your data. None of them explain all of it, but they each explain something additional that deep nonconsent preferences don’t. Also as I typed them up I realized they explained more than I thought, but again, your initial strong frame pushed out that knowledge.
women are scared men will get angry if they go from “yes” to “no”, in a way they won’t if the woman goes from “----” to “no”, so women delay being explicit until they have all the information
“I would like to submit a formal request to touch your boob” is the lowest possible skill way to ask for consent. High skill ways are appreciated, in part because the space of boob-touching is large and you will never manage to convey sufficient detail verbally.
A partner who is good at reading you is valuable in lots of ways- perhaps valuable enough to give up a bunch of guys who would have been merely okay.
people are scared of rejection at every stage and women don’t have the same push to get over it
Gen Z men seem to have more fear/less push to get over it and indeed, AIUI aren’t asking women out very much.
this can also explain CNC fantasies- there’s no risk of owning a desire and seeing it rejected
women are disincentivized to express desire
(all models are possibilities and generalities, people are complicated, etc)
I think one thing I didn’t communicate in the post is that I don’t necessarily intend to hypothesize deep nonconsent as a terminal preference. So, for instance,
sounds to me like one of many possible generators of deep nonconsent preference—i.e. it’s directly explaining why women would typically have a deep-in-the-sense-of-appearing-in-lots-of-places preference for nonconsent behavior. It therefore sounds not-at-all at odds with the post, or at least what I had in mind when writing the post.
I think you should have chosen a different word than deep (“Inner, underlying, true; relating to one’s inner or private being rather than what is visible on the surface.”).
“Pervasive”, “recurrent”, “systematic” …?
I definitely took the original post to be describing a terminal value rather than manifestation of something deeper, if you meant instrumental that handles a lot of my objections.
But while I’m here, another data point: I’ve heard multiple young women say they won’t make explicit requests in bed because what they mean is “weight this action moderately higher among your list of options” but the dude hears “keep doing this on rote until I give you another instruction”. I haven’t heard this from anyone over 30, hopefully it means someone learned something.
Just one data point: to me your post feel shallow in a good way. I can say: “I can’t help but note how all this annoying behaviour suddenly become endearing to me when I am in love.” but it feels like I am deepening your post, not contradicting it. Am I gesturing at non-terminal property you mentioned?
P.S. just noticed I am using “shallow” when there is literally “deep” in headline. Yet this is my impression.
″...isn’t the experience of me or women I know. Asking men out leads to boyfriends who are generally passive and offload a bunch of work onto you (even when they’re BSDM tops). ”
This is very interesting and a perspective I haven’t considered. Now that I think about it, the women I know who are asking man out have a mixture of outcomes, and while tend to move towards high quality partners long term (especially if they are polyamorous), they indeed complain about having had very passive exes. I suspect asking out removes the filter for proactivity and they are falling back to the base rate with higher chance of getting passive partners due to prevalence in the population. Actually even worse if we assume proactive males are sorting themselves out from the available population. (There may be some additional factor potentially contributing to passivity, but haven’t thought it through yet).
Another observation I have is that they tend to be tops or switches with top preference. Assuming John is correct about nonconsent preference being the prevalent attribute in the general population, I would say they are the inverse, with that being the minority here.
My sample size is single digit though, so YMMV.