Vladimir_M’s statement sounds quite insightful but it’s dangerously close to one of these “you can’t prove that there aren’t any dragons in the garage” type things (not being able to think up with examples doesn’t imply they don’t exist because their very nature is that they are elusive).
If I were to looking for examples myself—by analogy with the weird sort of thought patterns people addicted to smoking use, to convince themself to keep smoking—I’d try to think of ways to remove things I love from my life (e.g. being able to think whatever I like without monitoring or having my thoughts censorsed/deleted). Some of the Fun theory articles may be a good starting point.
Vladimir_M’s statement sounds quite insightful but it’s dangerously close to one of these “you can’t prove that there aren’t any dragons in the garage” type things (not being able to think up with examples doesn’t imply they don’t exist because their very nature is that they are elusive).
I actually have a pretty high confidence in Vladimir_M’s model of the world. I don’t put a very high prior on the bits that are unknown to me to be very much less accurate or useful.
I was pointing out that you’ve inferred things about Konkvistador’s state of mind that are highly speculative (but possibly true), but are purporting them as definite truth. (I was literally only commenting on that.)
I’m not dismissing what you are saying. In fact I upvoted your original comment and have updated accordingly. I’m just sharing where this leaves my estimation on how much Vladimir_M thought is useful.
being able to think whatever I like without monitoring
Total, ubiquitous and universally available surveillance, including automated facial expression and body language analysis (every citizen being, given some work, able to check out every hour of someone else’s life the way we check Facebook status, plus low-level AI monitoring) is part of a short Weirdtopia story I’m writing. I’ve decided to set it on a planet in the Warhammer 40k universe BTW.
having my thoughts censorsed/deleted
Now that would be completely unacceptable indeed. Is, say, being on the business end of the mental health system in the worst way possible something like that? For myself, I don’t consider a life with something like that to be worth living.
Now that would be completely unacceptable indeed. Is, say, being on the business end of the mental health system in the worst way possible something like that? For myself, I don’t consider a life with something like that to be worth living.
So, the only reason you’re still alive is that you haven’t bothered (or been able) to verify whether you’ve forgotten thoughts you don’t remember having had? My sympathies.
There’s probably a pretty big difference, and you’re probably just cynically exploiting the fact that I can’t formulate it at 5am. And tomorrow I might just forget to address this topic… wait, shi-
In the WH40K universe, a small group of acquaintances, doing basic experimental research in applied parapsychology can, and eventually /will/ create a portal to Hell out of which pours a demonic army which then proceeds to do very unpleasant things to everybody on the planet. Given that the Imperium’s standard policy in such an event is to sterilize the entire planet, total transparency as described above is probably a relatively stable, safe, and even pleasant model of society to live in (certainly relative to a lot of the other options).
The scary thing is that the real world appears to be approaching a similar situation with respect to epidemiology, or possibly even microbiology more generally.
A alternative adaptation to this is to stay indoors. A lot. Imagine people working and socializing in virtual environments only. Sharing physical space or having physical contact with people might soon become something limited to family or sexual partners, and I would argue we are already moving in that direction. Even causal sex, one of the few ways in which we have more interpersonal contact with different people than we used to, may be on the way out if virtual sex or sex bots (sex with a human through a robot avatar might be a superior experience soon) become good enough that only romantics bother with the “natural” kind.
Taking a few additional precautions to systematically reduce the possibility of infection with food and other deliveries one could get a high level of safety. Oceans, moutains and deserts used to be barriers to disease, might our front door prove a suitable replacement? If you live with only a few people, you can make the entire home one big bubble.
This could eventually transition to bodies being sustained by artificial means and people spending all their time in virtual space or incarnated in real life robotic avatars. Might not sound much better than total constant surveillance, but consider, we may actually be able to have more privacy preserved in society that moves first in this direction than if we first eliminate privacy and then transition to a mostly virtual life.
Total, ubiquitous and universally available surveillance, including automated facial expression and body language analysis (every citizen being, given some work, able to check out every hour of someone else’s life the way we check Facebook status, plus low-level AI monitoring) is part of a short Weirdtopia story I’m writing. I’ve decided to set it on a planet in the Warhammer 40k universe BTW.
I hope you finish your weirdtopia story soon, I’d be very interested in reading it :)
Now that would be completely unacceptable indeed. Is, say, being on the business end of the mental health system in the worst way possible something like that? For myself, I don’t consider a life with something like that to be worth living.
I agree, freedom of thought is a must for me. But I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t have to delete that many memes from my brain to make it acceptable.
Vladimir_M’s statement sounds quite insightful but it’s dangerously close to one of these “you can’t prove that there aren’t any dragons in the garage” type things (not being able to think up with examples doesn’t imply they don’t exist because their very nature is that they are elusive).
If I were to looking for examples myself—by analogy with the weird sort of thought patterns people addicted to smoking use, to convince themself to keep smoking—I’d try to think of ways to remove things I love from my life (e.g. being able to think whatever I like without monitoring or having my thoughts censorsed/deleted). Some of the Fun theory articles may be a good starting point.
I actually have a pretty high confidence in Vladimir_M’s model of the world. I don’t put a very high prior on the bits that are unknown to me to be very much less accurate or useful.
Seconded.
I don’t really understand the purpose of your reply to my comment.
You’re basically dismissing everything I said because he has a high reputation. Fine, but why tell me?
Stating that someone’s reason for X is definitely Y, based on two sentences… are you a mind-reader?
I see there’s no point trying to have a rational discussion here.
What do mean? (Serious question.)
I was pointing out that you’ve inferred things about Konkvistador’s state of mind that are highly speculative (but possibly true), but are purporting them as definite truth. (I was literally only commenting on that.)
I’m not dismissing what you are saying. In fact I upvoted your original comment and have updated accordingly. I’m just sharing where this leaves my estimation on how much Vladimir_M thought is useful.
So you can update slightly towards confidence in Vladimir_M’s model?
Total, ubiquitous and universally available surveillance, including automated facial expression and body language analysis (every citizen being, given some work, able to check out every hour of someone else’s life the way we check Facebook status, plus low-level AI monitoring) is part of a short Weirdtopia story I’m writing. I’ve decided to set it on a planet in the Warhammer 40k universe BTW.
Now that would be completely unacceptable indeed. Is, say, being on the business end of the mental health system in the worst way possible something like that? For myself, I don’t consider a life with something like that to be worth living.
So, the only reason you’re still alive is that you haven’t bothered (or been able) to verify whether you’ve forgotten thoughts you don’t remember having had? My sympathies.
There’s probably a pretty big difference, and you’re probably just cynically exploiting the fact that I can’t formulate it at 5am. And tomorrow I might just forget to address this topic… wait, shi-
Beeep! This is a friendly reminder to continue this train of thought!
In the WH40K universe, a small group of acquaintances, doing basic experimental research in applied parapsychology can, and eventually /will/ create a portal to Hell out of which pours a demonic army which then proceeds to do very unpleasant things to everybody on the planet. Given that the Imperium’s standard policy in such an event is to sterilize the entire planet, total transparency as described above is probably a relatively stable, safe, and even pleasant model of society to live in (certainly relative to a lot of the other options).
The scary thing is that the real world appears to be approaching a similar situation with respect to epidemiology, or possibly even microbiology more generally.
A alternative adaptation to this is to stay indoors. A lot. Imagine people working and socializing in virtual environments only. Sharing physical space or having physical contact with people might soon become something limited to family or sexual partners, and I would argue we are already moving in that direction. Even causal sex, one of the few ways in which we have more interpersonal contact with different people than we used to, may be on the way out if virtual sex or sex bots (sex with a human through a robot avatar might be a superior experience soon) become good enough that only romantics bother with the “natural” kind.
Taking a few additional precautions to systematically reduce the possibility of infection with food and other deliveries one could get a high level of safety. Oceans, moutains and deserts used to be barriers to disease, might our front door prove a suitable replacement? If you live with only a few people, you can make the entire home one big bubble.
This could eventually transition to bodies being sustained by artificial means and people spending all their time in virtual space or incarnated in real life robotic avatars. Might not sound much better than total constant surveillance, but consider, we may actually be able to have more privacy preserved in society that moves first in this direction than if we first eliminate privacy and then transition to a mostly virtual life.
I hope you finish your weirdtopia story soon, I’d be very interested in reading it :)
I agree, freedom of thought is a must for me. But I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t have to delete that many memes from my brain to make it acceptable.
Did you ever finish the story? I’d be interested in reading it.
Unless it ends with everyone dying horribly or something similar happening, it’s not Warhammer 40k. ;)