I don’t have the experience you do, but this is what I think:
As a man, in some sense, you are forever alone. You are expected to be a pillar for others, and you can take pride in being one, but you won’t get your own one—especially not from you female partner, when another attractive male is around. Because this is how human attraction is wired: as a man, independence makes you attractive, dependence makes you unattractive. Situations like the one you described create a vicious circle, because the more you need support, the less likely you are to get it, precisely because needing support makes you less attractive.
(To avoid absolute terms: It is a sign of a good relationship that you can get moderate amounts of support. But that’s only on a good day, and in a limited amount. Don’t try this on a wrong day. And don’t get used to it… because sooner or later the wrong day will come and you may not notice it.)
In some sense, men are competing all their lives. On a lucky day, we are allowed to run less quickly. But it’s always about what value we can provide. Being sad or begging—that’s no value. It’s not about what you need; it’s about what you can give… or threaten to withhold. The proper expression of jealousy is one that makes the partner think “I am getting some value from this relationship, and I don’t want to risk losing it”. If the partner merely thinks “oh, I see he is suffering… however, I have a duty to myself to make myself happy”, such jealousy only hurts your position.
show signs of love, fondness, affection
To put it bluntly, here you have mistaken your needs for her needs. It was you who wanted to be loved, to be treated with affection. It is a very natural mistake; many people do it instinctively.
What you probably should have done is to find some interesting things to do, and to do them without her. To report feeling great and having a good time. With some hints that other women are interested in you (but you, of course, prefer her). This is what would make her think that maybe she could lose something. -- I realize that this requires a lot of mental strength, and is probably impossible in a given situation; especially if you wait too long.
The worst part is that if you look at it from the punishment/reward viewpoint, you were rewarding her for the actions that hurt you. She received the attention from the new guy and the attention from you. And I’d bet you also did most of the work at home. You contributed to her having a perfect honeymoon… with the new guy. (This is just my guess, but it’s based on my model that you tried hard to do everything to make her happy.) -- Again, a better strategy would be to leave a lot of work for her, so she is somewhat tired and angry when dating the other guy.
I considered polyamory.
You mean the kind where also you have alternative partners, or only the kind where she does. What specific steps did you do to obtain the alternative partners for you? -- In other words, were you trying to find a new fair model for you both, or were you just torturing yourself and experimenting how far can you bend before you break?
I was shown the truth. Told unambiguously that she did love another. That I was powerless and was completely at her mercy.
First part was true, the second part was a crippling lie. You could have learned about how to navigate relationships from a male-friendly source. If the “experienced moderator” did not suggest this, I would consider it an evidence of huge incompetence. To put it bluntly, while you waited for her decision, you could have fucked the proverbial ten other women. And you would feel much better, like a valuable human being. And the ironic part is that afterwards you would have a greater chance of winning her back.
If she still loves me I want to believe that she still loves me. If she doesn’t love me any more I want to believe that she doesn’t love me any more.
This assumes that whether she loves you is fixed, and your reactions do not influence it (which is a crappy way to treat relationships in general); so all you can do is passively learn the fact and helplessly accept it.
I got along much better with her. I could set boundaries (which I previously couldn’t; before I’d rather compromise or retreat). And the boundaries were accepted. A clear “no” worked much better than “I will try my best” before.
PUA 101. Congratulations for being able to discover it on your own. But your life would be better if you knew it sooner.
Congratulations for not moving out. Seem like even the law prefers to side with the stronger guy; or more precisely, has a strong status quo bias. If you showed weakness by moving out, the court would simply bless the status quo, because that would be the easiest thing to do.
Assuming that saving your relationship was not an option, you probably got the best possible result, which is impressive. I hope you’ll find more peace, friendship, and a new partner (or multiple partners, if you wish—you have no obligations now).
Being sad or begging—that’s no value. [...] such jealousy only hurts your position.
Sure. But showing these signs can also trigger empathy and altruism. If her love for me had been genuine or stronger it might have turned her without me forcing her. In this way I got feedback making me update toward her loving me less.
show signs of love, fondness, affection
To put it bluntly, here you have mistaken your needs for her needs. It was you who wanted to be loved, to be treated with affection. It is a very natural mistake; many people do it instinctively.
Sure those were my needs. But I didn’t do it to that end. Sure it was on my list and sure I used it instinctively. But I quickly learned that it didn’t work.
What you probably should have done is to find some interesting things to do, and to do them without her. To report feeling great and having a good time.
Wouldn’t have worked. Could have worked if applied for a longer time earlier (together with other Alpha traits). My feelings for her were so strong at that time I likely couldn’t have done anyway .
The worst part is that if you look at it from the punishment/reward viewpoint, you were rewarding her for the actions that hurt you.
That is correct. Nonetheless at that point didn’t know better. Or conceivably me being still so much attached to her this was unavoidable to achieve sufficient tension to in the end snap me.
I considered polyamory.
You mean the kind where also you have alternative partners, or only the kind where she does. [...] Were you trying to find a new fair model for you both, or were you just torturing yourself and experimenting how far can you bend before you break?
No I wasn’t torturing myself. Never have. I can endure tension but in the sense of being at ones limit not beyond.
It would have been an entirely fair model. I know because we had talked about such things and I knew her standpoint. I just didn’t know how I’d feel with it actually. I didn’t plan to have other partners but wouldn’t have excluded it in priciple. I just wouldn’t have pursued it actively.
That I was powerless and was completely at her mercy.
[That] part was a crippling lie.
Probably I shouldn’t have condensed that dialog so much. And consider that it was told to us both at the same time so she saw the scope of her behavior. Anyway. Nothing short of a video will probably suffice to render the involved emotions.
It didn’t cripple me. He probably knew. It pushed me over the edge of my nearly unconditional love for her. Without it I might have further endured and endured. It broke the asymmetry.
You could have learned about how to navigate relationships from a male-friendly source.
‴This is valuable advice I already skimmed shortly,‴ Reflecting on it during our relationship I must have sent out the strongest Beta signal you can imagine but almost no Alpha. I was already exploring in this direction (having ordered Neil Strauss a few weeks ago).
And the ironic part is that afterwards you would have a greater chance of winning her back.
But actually I don’t want her back! Being left by my unconditional love for her I see that she had not reciprocated comparably in the relationship (except if you count her enduring unhappiness and ).
Maybe with more and/or better advice I could have manipulated her to stay. But I wouldn’t have done so without her consent.
It is not like we didn’t know about our trouble spots. We did try. Multiple times. maybe there will be time when this is obvious knowledge (which I doubt) but we didn’t know and were left on a low plateau.
A clear “no” worked much better than “I will try my best” before.
But your life would be better if you knew it sooner.
I knew it sooner. She told me often enough to say “no” clearly.
But you still don’t get how much I was skewed by my love for her.
I didn’t want to say “no”. I wanted badly to satisfy her—more than I was able to.
Actually on most points where I avoided a “no” I made progress over time. Taught me a lot. Self-discipline among that.
You know what. It was a major driver behind my achievements. My other main drivers being the children and then my general curiosity. But curiosity doesn’t solve problems.
Having though about this male destiny, Alpha+Beta thing a bit more and after recalling being told by relatives “why can’t you accept/understand Gods wish for your marriage” I wondered:
Can it be that it is advantageous if the man behaves as the responsible “head of the household” in the biblical sense? Thus that being godo advice for deep reasons. Evopsych reasons actually.
I’m not validating the bible with this. But I wonder what advice from the bible and other old sources should be reconsidered in this light.
I mean there was a somewhat recent post that urged to reconsider advice in this direction.
I’m also not invalidating womans rights and equality. It can quite well be that it is on average in the best relationship-stability -interest (evopsych wise) for women to follow this advice too. Or else accept the consequences knowingly (divorce rate and such).
The reason I like Athol Kay is that in my opinion he understands this part correctly: being a powerful man (Alpha) and being a good father (Beta) are orthogonal traits. Most people seem to believe that they are strongly correlated (halo effect) or anticorrelated (false dilemma). Many PUAs would suggest that the Beta traits (where you apparently excel) are somehow harmful for the Alpha behavior. Athol says otherwise; and unlike most PUAs, he is the one who has a family with kids, so I would trust his expertise on this.
Yes, the Bible quotes are about an Alpha behavior, and it is there because at the times the Bible was written, it was a common sense. (It was before feminism, which succeeded in throwing out the baby with the bath water, and labeling every male assertive behavior as evil.) But I doubt the Bible could be very useful in finding good messages of this kind. Not every message there is good; I assume you are not going to also study tips and tricks on killing your neighbors who don’t worship Yahweh properly. And to recognize a good message, you must already know it is good, so you are not actually getting new information, only a confirmation of something you already believe, and perhaps a nice rationalization.
I’m also not invalidating womans rights and equality.
That would be a false dilemma. Whether someone has a right to vote or study science, and what makes one instinctively sexually attracted, are two different things. Men’s sexual preferences didn’t change just because voting became universal; why should women’s?
In my opinion, the proper solution is a mix of responsibility and role-playing. The man should not be the weaker one in the relationship; this is where personal growth is necessary. But beyond that point, I think mere role-playing (rationally recognized by both parties as such) is enough to satisfy the emotional needs and trigger the attraction. Specifically: I have to recognize my boundaries and say a clear “no” when they are threatened. Also I have to make a decision when neither of us wants to. But in the everyday life, when we both want the same thing, I can just pretend it’s my unilateral decision, and my girlfriend can pretend to obey me. But if she disagrees, she just plainly says so, and I change “my decision” accordingly. The way the decision is role-played is not necessarily the way it was causally made.
There are two ways a woman can challenge this; and it is necessary to understand the difference. First, being challenged and responding appropriately is an integral part of playing the authority role. Sometimes the woman just says “how about [something that violates your rules]?” and you calmly say “no”; and it’s over. This is part of the game, a playful rebellion that by being properly handled confirms the roles. Women do this instinctively, without being aware at the moment what they do. You recognize it afterwards by them not minding being told “no”, and actually being happy about it. Or if you fail to react properly, you recognize it afterwards by them being frustrated despite getting what they claimed to want. (This is a completely different situation from when the woman really wants something. In a good relationship you will find a way to communicate the difference, for example she says something like “I am serious about this”.) -- Second, she may have learned some harmful memes or had a bad relationship before you, where any dominant behavior from you triggers a mindkilling reaction or a panic mode in her, however a lack of dominant behavior makes you unattractive. I don’t know what to do here; I would predict that this relationship doesn’t have a chance.
Whether someone has a right to vote or study science, and what makes one instinctively sexually attracted, are two different things. Men’s sexual preferences didn’t change just because voting became universal; why should women’s?
Obviously. But the zeitgeist seems to downplay this truth toward zero.
I will consider your role-playing advice. I’m not sure how to integrate this with honesty and clear communication. And integrated with real life it must be otherwise it will not work or risk become an isolated purpose (which will evolve out of existence). And there are parts that I can enhance to work.
Biblical advice is for an age without therapists, lawyers or police. I can see how under those conditions, an institutionalised position of a head decision maker within the household could have made sense. I cannot see how it merits consideration today.
If the “experienced moderator” did not suggest this, I would consider it an evidence of huge incompetence.
Strong emotions such as broken love can put someone in the stage of huge incompetence.
Even if he would tried to do it the PUA way, I don’t think he could have just changed his behavior in a few days. Most people who pick up PUA are very incongruent at the beginning.
I don’t have the experience you do, but this is what I think:
As a man, in some sense, you are forever alone. You are expected to be a pillar for others, and you can take pride in being one, but you won’t get your own one—especially not from you female partner, when another attractive male is around. Because this is how human attraction is wired: as a man, independence makes you attractive, dependence makes you unattractive. Situations like the one you described create a vicious circle, because the more you need support, the less likely you are to get it, precisely because needing support makes you less attractive.
(To avoid absolute terms: It is a sign of a good relationship that you can get moderate amounts of support. But that’s only on a good day, and in a limited amount. Don’t try this on a wrong day. And don’t get used to it… because sooner or later the wrong day will come and you may not notice it.)
In some sense, men are competing all their lives. On a lucky day, we are allowed to run less quickly. But it’s always about what value we can provide. Being sad or begging—that’s no value. It’s not about what you need; it’s about what you can give… or threaten to withhold. The proper expression of jealousy is one that makes the partner think “I am getting some value from this relationship, and I don’t want to risk losing it”. If the partner merely thinks “oh, I see he is suffering… however, I have a duty to myself to make myself happy”, such jealousy only hurts your position.
To put it bluntly, here you have mistaken your needs for her needs. It was you who wanted to be loved, to be treated with affection. It is a very natural mistake; many people do it instinctively.
What you probably should have done is to find some interesting things to do, and to do them without her. To report feeling great and having a good time. With some hints that other women are interested in you (but you, of course, prefer her). This is what would make her think that maybe she could lose something. -- I realize that this requires a lot of mental strength, and is probably impossible in a given situation; especially if you wait too long.
The worst part is that if you look at it from the punishment/reward viewpoint, you were rewarding her for the actions that hurt you. She received the attention from the new guy and the attention from you. And I’d bet you also did most of the work at home. You contributed to her having a perfect honeymoon… with the new guy. (This is just my guess, but it’s based on my model that you tried hard to do everything to make her happy.) -- Again, a better strategy would be to leave a lot of work for her, so she is somewhat tired and angry when dating the other guy.
You mean the kind where also you have alternative partners, or only the kind where she does. What specific steps did you do to obtain the alternative partners for you? -- In other words, were you trying to find a new fair model for you both, or were you just torturing yourself and experimenting how far can you bend before you break?
First part was true, the second part was a crippling lie. You could have learned about how to navigate relationships from a male-friendly source. If the “experienced moderator” did not suggest this, I would consider it an evidence of huge incompetence. To put it bluntly, while you waited for her decision, you could have fucked the proverbial ten other women. And you would feel much better, like a valuable human being. And the ironic part is that afterwards you would have a greater chance of winning her back.
This assumes that whether she loves you is fixed, and your reactions do not influence it (which is a crappy way to treat relationships in general); so all you can do is passively learn the fact and helplessly accept it.
PUA 101. Congratulations for being able to discover it on your own. But your life would be better if you knew it sooner.
Congratulations for not moving out. Seem like even the law prefers to side with the stronger guy; or more precisely, has a strong status quo bias. If you showed weakness by moving out, the court would simply bless the status quo, because that would be the easiest thing to do.
Assuming that saving your relationship was not an option, you probably got the best possible result, which is impressive. I hope you’ll find more peace, friendship, and a new partner (or multiple partners, if you wish—you have no obligations now).
Quite a long answer.
Sure. But showing these signs can also trigger empathy and altruism. If her love for me had been genuine or stronger it might have turned her without me forcing her. In this way I got feedback making me update toward her loving me less.
Sure those were my needs. But I didn’t do it to that end. Sure it was on my list and sure I used it instinctively. But I quickly learned that it didn’t work.
Wouldn’t have worked. Could have worked if applied for a longer time earlier (together with other Alpha traits). My feelings for her were so strong at that time I likely couldn’t have done anyway .
That is correct. Nonetheless at that point didn’t know better. Or conceivably me being still so much attached to her this was unavoidable to achieve sufficient tension to in the end snap me.
No I wasn’t torturing myself. Never have. I can endure tension but in the sense of being at ones limit not beyond.
It would have been an entirely fair model. I know because we had talked about such things and I knew her standpoint. I just didn’t know how I’d feel with it actually. I didn’t plan to have other partners but wouldn’t have excluded it in priciple. I just wouldn’t have pursued it actively.
Probably I shouldn’t have condensed that dialog so much. And consider that it was told to us both at the same time so she saw the scope of her behavior. Anyway. Nothing short of a video will probably suffice to render the involved emotions.
It didn’t cripple me. He probably knew. It pushed me over the edge of my nearly unconditional love for her. Without it I might have further endured and endured. It broke the asymmetry.
‴This is valuable advice I already skimmed shortly,‴ Reflecting on it during our relationship I must have sent out the strongest Beta signal you can imagine but almost no Alpha. I was already exploring in this direction (having ordered Neil Strauss a few weeks ago).
But actually I don’t want her back! Being left by my unconditional love for her I see that she had not reciprocated comparably in the relationship (except if you count her enduring unhappiness and ).
Maybe with more and/or better advice I could have manipulated her to stay. But I wouldn’t have done so without her consent. It is not like we didn’t know about our trouble spots. We did try. Multiple times. maybe there will be time when this is obvious knowledge (which I doubt) but we didn’t know and were left on a low plateau.
I knew it sooner. She told me often enough to say “no” clearly. But you still don’t get how much I was skewed by my love for her. I didn’t want to say “no”. I wanted badly to satisfy her—more than I was able to. Actually on most points where I avoided a “no” I made progress over time. Taught me a lot. Self-discipline among that.
You know what. It was a major driver behind my achievements. My other main drivers being the children and then my general curiosity. But curiosity doesn’t solve problems.
Having though about this male destiny, Alpha+Beta thing a bit more and after recalling being told by relatives “why can’t you accept/understand Gods wish for your marriage” I wondered:
Can it be that it is advantageous if the man behaves as the responsible “head of the household” in the biblical sense? Thus that being godo advice for deep reasons. Evopsych reasons actually.
I’m not validating the bible with this. But I wonder what advice from the bible and other old sources should be reconsidered in this light. I mean there was a somewhat recent post that urged to reconsider advice in this direction.
I’m also not invalidating womans rights and equality. It can quite well be that it is on average in the best relationship-stability -interest (evopsych wise) for women to follow this advice too. Or else accept the consequences knowingly (divorce rate and such).
The reason I like Athol Kay is that in my opinion he understands this part correctly: being a powerful man (Alpha) and being a good father (Beta) are orthogonal traits. Most people seem to believe that they are strongly correlated (halo effect) or anticorrelated (false dilemma). Many PUAs would suggest that the Beta traits (where you apparently excel) are somehow harmful for the Alpha behavior. Athol says otherwise; and unlike most PUAs, he is the one who has a family with kids, so I would trust his expertise on this.
Yes, the Bible quotes are about an Alpha behavior, and it is there because at the times the Bible was written, it was a common sense. (It was before feminism, which succeeded in throwing out the baby with the bath water, and labeling every male assertive behavior as evil.) But I doubt the Bible could be very useful in finding good messages of this kind. Not every message there is good; I assume you are not going to also study tips and tricks on killing your neighbors who don’t worship Yahweh properly. And to recognize a good message, you must already know it is good, so you are not actually getting new information, only a confirmation of something you already believe, and perhaps a nice rationalization.
That would be a false dilemma. Whether someone has a right to vote or study science, and what makes one instinctively sexually attracted, are two different things. Men’s sexual preferences didn’t change just because voting became universal; why should women’s?
In my opinion, the proper solution is a mix of responsibility and role-playing. The man should not be the weaker one in the relationship; this is where personal growth is necessary. But beyond that point, I think mere role-playing (rationally recognized by both parties as such) is enough to satisfy the emotional needs and trigger the attraction. Specifically: I have to recognize my boundaries and say a clear “no” when they are threatened. Also I have to make a decision when neither of us wants to. But in the everyday life, when we both want the same thing, I can just pretend it’s my unilateral decision, and my girlfriend can pretend to obey me. But if she disagrees, she just plainly says so, and I change “my decision” accordingly. The way the decision is role-played is not necessarily the way it was causally made.
There are two ways a woman can challenge this; and it is necessary to understand the difference. First, being challenged and responding appropriately is an integral part of playing the authority role. Sometimes the woman just says “how about [something that violates your rules]?” and you calmly say “no”; and it’s over. This is part of the game, a playful rebellion that by being properly handled confirms the roles. Women do this instinctively, without being aware at the moment what they do. You recognize it afterwards by them not minding being told “no”, and actually being happy about it. Or if you fail to react properly, you recognize it afterwards by them being frustrated despite getting what they claimed to want. (This is a completely different situation from when the woman really wants something. In a good relationship you will find a way to communicate the difference, for example she says something like “I am serious about this”.) -- Second, she may have learned some harmful memes or had a bad relationship before you, where any dominant behavior from you triggers a mindkilling reaction or a panic mode in her, however a lack of dominant behavior makes you unattractive. I don’t know what to do here; I would predict that this relationship doesn’t have a chance.
Obviously. But the zeitgeist seems to downplay this truth toward zero.
I will consider your role-playing advice. I’m not sure how to integrate this with honesty and clear communication. And integrated with real life it must be otherwise it will not work or risk become an isolated purpose (which will evolve out of existence). And there are parts that I can enhance to work.
Biblical advice is for an age without therapists, lawyers or police. I can see how under those conditions, an institutionalised position of a head decision maker within the household could have made sense. I cannot see how it merits consideration today.
Interesting post.
Strong emotions such as broken love can put someone in the stage of huge incompetence.
Even if he would tried to do it the PUA way, I don’t think he could have just changed his behavior in a few days. Most people who pick up PUA are very incongruent at the beginning.