viking_math

Karma: 145

viking_math 27 Mar 2024 15:00 UTC
3 points
0
in reply to: quanticle’s comment on: My Interview With Cade Metz on His Reporting About Slate Star Codex
Or explain why the NYT does use the chosen name of other people, like musicians’ stage names.

viking_math 27 Mar 2024 5:31 UTC
1 point
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in reply to: Mike P’s comment on: On coincidences and Bayesian reasoning, as applied to the origins of COVID-19
Brand new account, reposting old arguments? Not suspicious at all.
Stoyan and Chiu (2024)
“Just because the market was the epicenter doesn’t mean the pandemic started there,” while technically true, is fairly meaningless. If the center were at the lab every lab leak proponent would be shouting at the top of their lungs this conclusively proves the lab leak theory. Debating one particular statistical analysis doesn’t disprove the very elementary technique of “look at the data, it’s obvious” aka https://xkcd.com/2400/.
The multiple spillover theory might be wrong. But then again, so might all of the analyses that Roko cited in his initial post, including the paper about genetic engineering, the Richard Ebright tweet, the RTK estimates, etc. The point of that part was to show that it’s very easy to generate high Bayes factors if you highball favorable pieces of information, ignore unfavorable ones, make convenient assumptions, and multiply numbers together.
https://michaelweissman.substack.com/p/an-inconvenient-probability
This analysis is obviously heavily biased. No Bayes factor at all for the cases being at the market? Again, no LL supporter would seriously say the BF would be one if the cases were clustered near the WIV. This is the exact same sort of highly motivated reasoning that Rootclaim applied, and neither of the judges bought it, for the same reason. The CGG analysis is just wrong, etc.

viking_math 25 Feb 2024 0:38 UTC
1 point
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in reply to: avturchin’s comment on: On coincidences and Bayesian reasoning, as applied to the origins of COVID-19
They’re not equally unlikely. You haven’t provided any actual evidence for this claim.
Also, why on Earth would we just take the ratio of distances or areas as the probability factor? That’s not how pandemics work.

viking_math 23 Feb 2024 20:31 UTC
1 point
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in reply to: Richard_Kennaway’s comment on: On coincidences and Bayesian reasoning, as applied to the origins of COVID-19
ICUs were overwhelmed because Covid spread so much. Its hospitalization rate is a few percent and its fatality rate is 1% or so. This is in contrast to diseases like SARS 1 (9.5% fatality rate) or MERS (34% fatality rate). Sure, it’s not mild compared to seasonal flu, but it is much more mild than the obvious things you would compare it to.

viking_math 23 Feb 2024 16:48 UTC
2 points
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in reply to: avturchin’s comment on: On coincidences and Bayesian reasoning, as applied to the origins of COVID-19
The second thing would be surprising as if the virus can so often jump to humans from animals it will happen closer to its origin in Laos.
Spillover events probably did happen elsewhere, but not all spillover events lead to a pandemic, and covid is usually so mild that it’s not surprising we can’t find any such cases. (I also don’t know if some final important mutation didn’t happen until much closer to the actual pandemic start).
Alternative explanation is following: as the market is one of the most crowded place in the city
This is discussed in the Rootclaim debate. There are many different types of places which served as superspreader events early on, the evidence we have shows the growth rate in the market as the same outside of it, and overall growth didn’t seem to slow down when they closed the market.
If we assume that a worker of WIH was infected at work, this will be completely unspectacular until he started infecting other people. Such person can commute all around the city including to CDC near wet market.
This is also addressed. It would be a fantastic coincidence—much stronger than the one you posited at the start of this thread—if the only place they brought the disease was one of only a handful of other places in the city that a pandemic could actually start. Like, if all the early cases clustered around the WIV, and I said that a HSM worker could have brought it to the lab, would anyone take that seriously?
This, by the way, is exactly the kind of thing that annoys me and which is one of the main issues I made this thread to address. If you make enough favorable assumptions, you can make any hypothesis look good. This is clearly not the best explanation for the available evidence. Merely because you have successfully epicycled your way into a version of the theory which is not obviously impossible doesn’t mean anyone has any reason to think it is even remotely likely. Your arguments aren’t even consistent, as you seem surprised that there were no spillovers between Wuhan and Laos, but then don’t seem at all skeptical of the idea that a sick person would commute all over the city and only bring it to 1 place.
I mean, I could point out that the first non-Wuhan case was in Beijing on December 17th (I think, going off memory here) and that someone could have gotten sick in a different city, and then just hopped on a train and immediately went to the HSM, and the WIV isn’t relevant at all. Is this story convincing? Is there any evidence to support it? Does it feel like I am engaging in truth-seeking, or just throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks so I can prop up my pet theory?

viking_math 23 Feb 2024 2:12 UTC
1 point
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in reply to: romeostevensit’s comment on: On coincidences and Bayesian reasoning, as applied to the origins of COVID-19
What would the disjunctive fallacy be? Failing to account for the fact that P(A or B) >= P(A) and P(B)?

viking_math 22 Feb 2024 18:12 UTC
3 points
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in reply to: romeostevensit’s comment on: On coincidences and Bayesian reasoning, as applied to the origins of COVID-19
https://arbital.com/p/multiple_stage_fallacy/ ?

viking_math 22 Feb 2024 18:12 UTC
3 points
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in reply to: RussellThor’s comment on: On coincidences and Bayesian reasoning, as applied to the origins of COVID-19
At one point Miller gave a likelihood against LL by a factor of 1e20 or 1e25, I think during the second debate, on genetic evidence. I don’t think he intended this number to be an actual Bayes factor, but rather to show how easy it is to get a big BF by multiplying many small numbers together (see also https://arbital.com/p/multiple_stage_fallacy/).

viking_math 21 Feb 2024 23:26 UTC
3 points
2
in reply to: habryka’s comment on: Less Wrong automated systems are inadvertently Censoring me
I would like to see what Roko has to say about my post, so now I’m very curious how this works. Is this saying that you get rate-limited if you have at least 7 people downvoting you in the past 20 comments, regardless of how many people upvote you or how many times those 7 people vote? Also, does this count both overall and agreement karma?

viking_math 21 Feb 2024 21:07 UTC
4 points
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in reply to: avturchin’s comment on: On coincidences and Bayesian reasoning, as applied to the origins of COVID-19
What facility? WIV and HSM are at least 6 miles apart as the crow flies, with a big river between that forces anyone traveling from one to the other to go even further than that.
To override this we need some mental equlibristics (I think of meme here but I don’t want to be rude)
No, you just need stronger evidence. ¹⁄₂₀ isn’t that strong, especially for a complex situation with a high number of possible parameters to check.

viking_math 20 Feb 2024 17:12 UTC
1 point
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in reply to: Davidmanheim’s comment on: On coincidences and Bayesian reasoning, as applied to the origins of COVID-19
To make sure I understand your point… the “Bayes Factors” I give like 1/ 1 million aren’t meant to be taken literally. Rather they’re to show how easy it is to get a high BF in this case, if you do a very quick analysis that doesn’t account for details. I don’t expect this post, on its own, to convince anyone of the zoonotic origin hypothesis.

On coincidences and Bayesian reasoning, as applied to the origins of COVID-19

viking_math19 Feb 2024 1:14 UTC

62 points

28 comments14 min readLW link

viking_math 17 Feb 2024 6:04 UTC
1 point
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in reply to: Vaniver’s comment on: Brute Force Manufactured Consensus is Hiding the Crime of the Century
I would describe that as dismissing counter-evidence out of hand; it’s trivially easy to answer the question as stated, even if you don’t believe that particular story. In any event, this seems like arguing over semantics. I think that accusing someone of a being responsible for several million deaths requires quite strong evidence, and that a pretty key component of presenting strong evidence is seriously addressing counter-arguments and counter-evidence. None of Roko’s posts do that.
[It seems to me like you’re arguing he’s making procedural errors instead of just combing to the wrong conclusion / using the wrong numbers, and so I’m focusing on that as the more important point.
Sure. For example, he’s making the exact procedural error you describe in your footnote, by failing to consider how likely the genetic evidence is under the lab leak hypothesis, or if any other cities would look suspicious as the starting location of a pandemic, etc. He’s failing to apply consistent levels of skepticism to sources. But the biggest issue, in my mind, is still just not giving the question the level of consideration it requires. (I’m drafting an actual post so more detailed object-level arguments can go there when I’m done).
This is what numbers are for. Is “1000-1” a lot? Is it tremendous? Who cares about fuzzy words when the number 1000 is right there. (I happen to think 1000-1 is a lot but is not tremendous.)
I’m not sure what the point of arguing about the definition of “tremendous” is. If I had written “a lot” instead of “a tremendous amount” would anything substantial change?

viking_math 15 Feb 2024 23:53 UTC
1 point
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in reply to: Vaniver’s comment on: Brute Force Manufactured Consensus is Hiding the Crime of the Century
I don’t think that’s counts as tremendous certainty.
“Brute Force Manufactured consensus is hiding the Crime of the Century (emphasis mine). Although the post contains the statement “I believe” it doesn’t really express any other reservations, qualifiers, or uncertainty. It doesn’t present or consider any evidence for the alternatives.
this is really not a tremendous amount either.
It certainly seems like it’s supposed to a lot:
For the love of Bayes! How many times do you have to rerun history for a naturally occurring virus to randomly appear outside the lab that’s studying it at the exact time they are studying it?
If it’s not a lot of evidence, then taking this post at face value, what would one conclude is the probability that covid came from a lab? edit: And if it’s not a lot of evidence, is it ok to accuse someone of mass murder with that amount of evidence?
I think we should treat them as being roughly equally terrible.
Well I think this is pretty wild, but that’s beside the point, as this isn’t what the post actually says:
prosecute what I believe is the crime of the century: a group of scientists who I believe committed the equivalent of a modern holocaust (either deliberately or accidentally) are going to get away with it. For those who are not aware, the death toll of Covid-19 is estimated at between 19 million and 35 million.
It would also be very strange for the post to have a bunch of content which is clearly supposed to be evidence that Covid was, in fact, a lab leak, and not just evidence that Peter Daszak tried to bury evidence if the point is simply that hiding evidence is bad.

viking_math 15 Feb 2024 6:27 UTC
8 points
6
in reply to: Vaniver’s comment on: Brute Force Manufactured Consensus is Hiding the Crime of the Century
What the social consensus is and why it exists are not relevant to the point I was making. This post is accusing specific individuals of mass murder, claiming they are responsible for millions of deaths. If you just want to say that you don’t believe the expert consensus, that’s one thing, but that just leaves you in a state of uncertainty. This post expresses a tremendous amount of certainty, and the mere fact that debate was stifled cannot possibly demonstrate that the stifled side is actually correct.
I think it’s plausible—perhaps even likely—that the FBI, Secret Service, and various other agencies may have messed up the investigation in to the JFK assassination as well as acted or even colluded with each other to hide their own incompetence at protecting the president and during the aforementioned initial investigation. But this doesn’t mean they were the ones who assassinated him!
There is a large amount of material that is publicly available to be analyzed that might weigh on the question of Covid’s origins, as well as many arguments one could make. The Rootclaim debate covers much of it, but I’m sure not all. These data could be evaluated. Roko has not done that; the arguments and evidence here and in their other threads is extremely weak compared to the level of confidence that is expressed, or the level of confidence that would be required to level these accusations. Roko has clearly spent a lot of time making this post, his other 2 posts, various comments, and obnoxious comments on the Manifold thread about who would win the rootclaim debate, and has apparently done at least some research to support his claims. But when it’s pointed out that his grasp of the facts is lacking, his response is to say “pay me $200 an hour.” This is such obviously motivated reasoning that it is frankly an embarrassment for this post to have over 200 net upvotes.
I think the right strategy is to assume guilt in the presence of a coverup, because then someone who is genuinely uncertain as to whether or not they caused the issue is incentivized to cooperate with investigations instead of obstruct them.
This might have strategic usefulness, but that doesn’t mean it’s accurate. There are reasons why this video exists, one of which is because people don’t always behave rationally in situations like this.
That is, even if further investigation shows that COVID did not originate from WIV, I still think it’s a colossal crime to have dismissed the possibility of a lab leak and have fudged the evidence (or, at the very least, conflicted the investigations).
It was terrible, and likely backfired, but that isn’t “the crime of the century” being referenced, that would be the millions of dead people.

viking_math 14 Feb 2024 15:56 UTC
6 points
4
in reply to: Roko’s comment on: Brute Force Manufactured Consensus is Hiding the Crime of the Century
This is the kind of thing you do before you make a big post accusing someone of “the crime of the century.” I don’t know how you even thought this was remotely reasonable. This is basically just Pascal’s mugging, except that the worst you can do is harm the reputation of the community… “pay me or I might make really bad posts.”

viking_math 13 Feb 2024 3:17 UTC
2 points
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in reply to: Dweomite’s comment on: Brute Force Manufactured Consensus is Hiding the Crime of the Century
Ok. I don’t think that Roko necessarily thought of the situation that way; rather, I thought if it as a way to contextualize what a 1:1000 probability of a natural bat coronavirus pandemic starting in Wuhan meant.

viking_math 12 Feb 2024 16:59 UTC
2 points
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in reply to: Dweomite’s comment on: Brute Force Manufactured Consensus is Hiding the Crime of the Century
Your first comment seemed to take the position that the OP’s number was not merely different from yours, but indefensible, and you gave a lower bound for a defensible prior that was 1.4x higher than the number you were complaining about.
Are you claiming the timing argument is so weak that no reasonable person could possibly estimate its Bayes factor as >1.4? I don’t feel like you’ve come close to justifying a claim like that.
Roko gave a fairly high-level argument that didn’t dive too much into the details. I don’t believe it is possible for such an argument to reasonably give a probability of “at most 1/1000” that we see what he described with no lab leak. The location and type of disease make a great deal of sense for zoonosis and the timing factor is quite complicated—simply putting a uniform distribution over 80 years is not remotely valid.
It might be possible, with detailed argument and actual data, to come to the conclusion that the level of evidence from these factors gives a Bayes Factor of 1000 or more in favor of lab leak. I don’t think it’s likely, but it is at least complicated enough that I won’t say for sure it’s impossible.
I have no idea! What’s your 90% CI for how long it would take them, and what evidence are you relying on for that?
I don’t know. What I do know is that many relevant experts are skeptical that Covid could have been “created” in a lab, or if possible, think that it would have taken a very long time, and this does not seem to have changed from this old reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid19_did_not_come_from_the_wuhan_institute_of/fqpc7c8/ to the recent Rootclaim debate. It would be theoretically possible that the WIV figured a bunch of things out that no one else knew, and kept them secret, but this of course has to be argued for and put a probability on before you can use it to generate any Bayes Factor at all. It’s the responsibility of the person saying that the timing provides strong evidence to demonstrate that.
I previously thought you were claiming “the unconditional probability of a naturally-occurring pandemic to be a bat coronavirus is ~1”. This claim differs from that in several ways. Thank you for clarifying!
Making the probability conditional on location of origin: Absolutely fair, we already accounted for the improbability of the location. I missed this.
Sorry for not being clearer on this. I can’t remember if I emphasized this above, but I don’t think the pieces of evidence that Roko mentions in this post are independent, so A) actually analyzing them is kind of hard, and B) you can’t just multiply the numbers together.
What’s your probability if we change that to “are currently performing gain-of-function research on it”?
I have no idea, probably pretty low. But that’s because we don’t actually know that the WIV is performing “gain of function research” or how closely related the viruses it worked on were to Covid. The closest viruses that we know the WIV had samples of are still thousands of mutations away. The only evidence in the post for what research might have been happening is the rejected grant proposal from 2018; it’s not actually clear if WIV did GOF research. See e.g. https://www.factcheck.org/2021/05/the-wuhan-lab-and-the-gain-of-function-disagreement/
(Arguably some genetic features of the virus lean toward lab leak, but this is highly debatable and would require substantial analysis to put any sort of number on; Roko barely mentions them, and I discussed the one thing that he does mention above).
The other thing to keep in mind, which I haven’t brought up yet, is that Wuhan is not the only place one could generate a similar lab-leak hypothesis for. Although it is home to one of only 2 BSL-4 labs in China (as far we know, at any rate), virology labs are spread across China, and over the course of the last several years, many of them have been asserted to potentially be related to the lab leak as well. One you start speculating that labs might be doing things that they haven’t made public, then you can consider the possibility that any lab anywhere might be involved. WIV might be one of the stronger coincidences, but it’s certainly not the only one. Doubly so when we have to speculate on what research they might have done and what viruses they might have had, as I mentioned above; if you can assert that the WIV could have been doing things that we don’t know about, well, you could say the same of any lab. And when evaluating evidence this way, you have to not only consider the exact set of facts you got, but all of the situations that you would evaluate similarly (sort of like how a p-value gives the probability of a result at least as extreme as the one you saw under the null). So while something like P(bat coronavirus starts in Wuhan) is at least some level of odd coincidence, a statement like
For the love of Bayes! How many times do you have to rerun history for a naturally occurring virus to randomly appear outside the lab that’s studying it at the exact time they are studying it?
taken literally, the probability might actually be close to one! I haven’t done a thorough review of what every virology lab in China and Southeast Asia is doing, but this is obviously a very large factor that is not considered at all when generating the “1:1000 against” claim.

viking_math 12 Feb 2024 4:02 UTC
3 points
1
in reply to: Dweomite’s comment on: Brute Force Manufactured Consensus is Hiding the Crime of the Century
This is a period of about 2 years out of the entire 1920-2020 hundred-year window. Now, we could probably discount that hundred year window down to say an equivalent of 40 years as people have become more mobile and more numerous in China over the past 100 years, on average.
I did see this, but didn’t find it convincing. China has become substantially more urban, more interconnected, more populous, and more connected to the outside world even over the past 10 or 20 years. A claim like this requires substantially more thorough analysis. And, again, is it reasonable to start researching and make COVID in the ~2 year time window given? Like suppose covid started 1 month after this moratorium was lifted, would we just say the probability is 2/1920?
You appear to have more knowledge of virology than I do, but this is far too implausible for me to believe it merely because you declared it. I’ve heard of many plagues that were not bat coronaviruses. Your prior on the next naturally-occurring pandemic being a bat coronavirus cannot plausibly be ~100% unless you know some hitherto-unmentioned information that would be very startling to me.
I think that whatever the next pandemic out of Southern or Central China or Southeast Asia is, the WIV (or some other lab in the region) is extremely likely to have a sample of a related virus and studied it. Sars-Cov-2, as the name might imply, is closely related to the Sars-Cov-1 1 pandemic of 20 years ago; as far as I know, the original reservoir animal of neither virus has been conclusively identified, although bats are the most obvious candidate.
Scientists have been identifying this region, specifically wet markets, as a likely source of viral pandemics, particularly from bat coronaviruses, for years. This is the exact region of the world they come from. I’m not an expert on virology, but the exact market in Wuhan where the first cases all cluster was identified as a likely place for a pandemic to start in 2014: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/23/health/wuhan-pandemic-edward-holmes.html
I’m somewhat surprised that you’re so skeptical of this; I don’t think anyone was ever in doubt that bat coronaviruses spilling into humans in Southeast Asia this part of China has been considered a likely problem for a long time.

viking_math 12 Feb 2024 1:09 UTC
0 points
−1
in reply to: Dweomite’s comment on: Brute Force Manufactured Consensus is Hiding the Crime of the Century
“What kind of disease” has Bayes Factor 1. It’s exactly the kind of disease that has caused pandemics in the same region of the world within the past 20 years, and which comes from the kind of wild animal trade that has been known to be happening in Wuhan for years. I discussed this in the very next paragraph.
The timing is given by such a weak argument that I did ignore it, yes. WIV has been studying bat coronaviruses for years, and probably will continue to do so for years, and the only thing to tie it so closely in time is a rejected grant proposal that emphasized having the actual work done at UNC.
Actually, I think timing is actually evidence against the relevance of the grant proposal. I don’t think they could have done anything like creating Covid (which, based on everything I’ve heard, would have required vastly new and different techniques from what existed in 2018, and which is several thousand mutations away from the nearest known natural virus) in a year and a half.

viking_math

On co­in­ci­dences and Bayesian rea­son­ing, as ap­plied to the ori­gins of COVID-19

On coincidences and Bayesian reasoning, as applied to the origins of COVID-19