Apparently “~30min” is a floor, not a ceiling.
Conor Moreton
Ah, crap. If I’d noticed this sooner, I might not have made the post I just made, which is somewhat redundant. But perhaps if anybody wants a more mechanical model of how these things Kaj points out can come to be, they might like reading the post on Goodhart and microhedonics.
Thanks, Kaj.
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense to me that explicit cognition can interfere with the underlying, more “automatic” conditioning. Narrative framing and preforming intentions and focusing attention on the link between X and Y seem to have a strong influence on how conditioning does or doesn’t work, and I don’t know what the mechanisms are.
That being said, I think we agree that, in situations where there’s not a lot of conscious attention on what’s happening, the conditioning proceeds something like “normally,” where “normal” is “comparable to what happens in less sapient animals”?
I couldn’t dig up the original study from my phone but I found this, which references it: https://www.cogneurosociety.org/series1predictionreward/
Oh, interesting. To the best of my knowledge, the invention of the terms diachronic and episodic has nothing at all to do with CFAR. Or are you pointing more at the “taking [some framework] as a given, try to do something useful through narrative manipulation” bit? I agree that that does seem to be pointing in the same basic direction, or to be based on similar assumptions, although I didn’t intend for my post to be making claims that are quite as strong or confident as the things you linked.
Thanks for the reading recommendations and the suggestions! I decided to leave ∃ for somewhat snarky incentivize-people-to-go-learn-a-thing reasons, but I linked to a clicker training video and will add a couple of sentences.
I would absolutely expect internalized models to be a part of the thing (to be one of the abstractions or simplifications that your S1 uses to understand all of the data it’s ever experienced). I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that they’re the generator of a lot of the “this is serving my goals” or “this is threatening/dangerous” conclusions that lead to positive and negative pings. I would, however, be surprised to find out that they’re the only thing, or even the dominant one. I think we might disagree on type or hierarchy?
I’m positing that the social stuff you’re pointing out is like one of many “states” in the larger “nation” of brain-models-that-inform-the-brain’s-decision-to-punish-or-reward, whereas if I’m understanding you correctly you’re claiming either that the social modeling is the only model, or that the reward/punishment is always delivered through the social modeling channels (it always “comes from” some person-shaped thing in the head).
Please correct if I’ve misunderstood. I note that I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s like that for some people, but according to my introspection the social dynamic just doesn’t have that much power for me personally.
Hmmm … that seems sensible, and produced a shift, but not enough to move my overall weighing. Cue metacognitive doubts about whether I’m just status-quo biasing into protecting my original decision. :-)
Got it. That makes sense. I think I still disagree, but if I’ve understood you right I can agree that that hypothesis also clearly deserves to be in the mix.
Thanks! Do you have any particular thoughts on where expansion would be productive rather than redundant?
Thanks very much for the appreciation. It’s win-win for me … I’ve been looking for something to spur me to actually get writing done, and I was hoping it would have the effect of helping the LW2.0 project at the same time.
@dust_to_must: Suggestion adopted. Thanks!
Thanks for the info! I think the diff between my explanation and yours largely falls out “true” in your favor, and I’m glad you have additional clarification (correction?) here.
Awesome. Thanks for adding. I particularly like the inclusion of adversarial behavior into the mix—I hadn’t thought of the goal structure of the candymakers as undercutting/exploiting/taking advantage of the goal structure of the humans.
Sweet! This is presumptuous of me, but—based on my past experiences, I recommend solving the doubling-down with some kind of system or strategy rather than sheer willpower. Like putting the pen by your toothbrush so you remember before going to bed, or something like that.
All I know of immunity to change is the techniquified version that people use as like a worksheet for behavior change. Would you be willing to elaborate? Particularly on “tie episodic instances … to diachronic permanence”?
Strong endorsement of this point. My concern is that I’ve noticed my brain stopping too soon when the actual reason that I’m investigating is to understand deeply.
There’s also an interesting clash between my point up above and the concept of value-of-information. Not sure how to synthesize those, except maybe as twin double-checks on the process? With VOI, you ask yourself “should I stop digging? Will more info actually help?” while you’re still intrinsically motivated to keep going. And with this, you ask yourself “should I keep going? Have I actually learned what I set out to learn?” when you feel satisfied and ready to stop.
Good point. I agree with that also.
Strong agreement with this point; it seems to be expressing itself in multiple ways as people make comments here. If I ever flesh this out, I’ll be sure to throw more caveats up front.
It’s hard to get super concrete since I’m sort of wildly theorizing about what happens downstream of people changing the way they conceive of themselves. But the first thing that I’m hoping falls out of this is being able to integrate the other end of the spectrum at all.
Consider e.g. marriage/handfasting/long-term romantic commitment, and for the sake of neatness let’s say we have a diachronic and an episodic who are in a relationship together.
In the version where they don’t receive this advice, or think that it’s stupid, or have some other block against integrating it, what I expect is something like a persistent communication mismatch where the diachronic partner is trying to build scaffolds and the episodic partner is trying to dismantle cages. The diachronic partner wants commitment, reliability, and predictability, and is trying to extend those things to the episodic partner in hopes of getting them back in return—their feelings are enduring and unchanging (or slowly changing), and they want reassurance that yes, here’s something we can build together.
Meanwhile, the episodic partner wants … permission to exist? Permission to grow and change and not be constrained by the version of who they used to be? And so they’re confused and dismayed by attempts to contractualize feelings, or make costly precommitments, and they’re scared about the looming sense that this is how it’ll be forever, my partner’s never going to evolve and I have to just decide whether this is good enough.
Whereas if both partners can receive this set of concepts, and make moves to integrate in the way I’m recommending, then I imagine the diachronic person sort of loosening up, and the episodic person sort of calming down, and both of them entering into more of a cooperative partnership, with the understanding that both of them are going to become different people over time, but that they want to experience that growth together, and support one another through it.
The idea here is that the diachronic person shifts the target of their love from “my partner now” to “the thing that caused my partner to grow into who they are now, and will also cause them to grow into something differently awesome in the future.” They repose their trust in the process rather than the product. And the episodic person shifts their understanding of the contract from something that will trap and constrain them to something that serves as a solid foundation upon which more can be built, or a home base from which adventures can be launched. They recognize the difference between a request to [never change and always feel the same feelings] and a request to [stay in contact while continuing to evolve].
And sure, that won’t solve everything, and for some partners that won’t be enough to bridge the gap. I can imagine, for instance, feeling so episodic that even being fallen in love with for my process of growth induces some panic and desire-to-escape, because what if I don’t feel like growing next year?
But I imagine it would help, at least.
Attempting a totally separate concrete example, let’s take two people (one diachronic, one episodic) who are both in their third year of a pre-med major in college, and are experiencing strong internal conflict and desire-to-quit.
The stereotypical diachronic just puts their head down and keeps their nose to the grindstone, because they made a commitment, dammit, and they’re the type of person who sees things through (straw Hufflepuff, maybe?). The stereotypical episodic just skips out and burns all their bridges, dropping the major and shifting into—I dunno—a coding bootcamp?
And maybe both of these strategies are ultimately the right move for those people, and there’s no problem. But if I were to try to loosen up the identity label, and get each of them feeling more capable of wearing the other’s hat …
I’d try to get the diachronic person to see that there’s a difference between a goal and the expression of that goal. That what they’d really committed to was something like “do well in school” or “finish what you start” or maybe “learn a skill that helps people,” and that there might well be other ways of achieving satisfaction on those axes that were less costly. I’d try to get them to see their actions as experiments in a bigger, broader picture, and show them that they could continue to maintain a consistent and non-hypocritical self-image by shifting to a different set of classes or changing their extracurriculars or letting off the pressure in some other way.
By the same token, I’d try to get the episodic person to focus, not on the knee-jerk desire to run, but on what’s causing it. To treat their deeper goalset as being relatively stable, and ask the question “what long-term steady desires are not being met? What important pieces of my utility function are being threatened?” I’d try to get them to see themselves as strategic rather than random, and to interpret their discomfort as a signal containing information that can be unpacked, rather than just a question that gets a “yes” or “no” answer.
Does that help?