Alicorn, perhaps you’ve changed the wording on this post since I originally read it, because though my initial reaction was negative, upon writing a reply I have very little disagreement with your actual prescriptions in this post. I do have some disagreements with your framing of the discourse on LessWrong.
Comments and posts that casually objectify women or encourage the objectification of women. “Objectification” is what happens when a person is treated or discussed as an object, not as an autonomous being. (Non-women can also be objectified, and that too should be stopped.)
“Objectification” can be a difficult term due to people defining it in different ways. Yet given the way you define it here, I agree with advocating against talking about or treating people in a way that denies their autonomy or depersonalizes them.
Whether particular examples exhibit objectification is another question. I don’t think that phrases such as “getting women” necessarily implies objectification, but since it is often used in that way, I think it’s worthwhile to expend a little bit more effort to avoid it.
I agree on the issue of pronouns. “They” isn’t really that bad.
As for generalizations: if data is not provided, then whatever evidence (e.g. anecdotes) leads to that notion should be presented, and/or the speculative nature of the claim should be acknowledged.
Fawning admiration of pickup artists who attain their fame by the systematic manipulation of women.
“Manipulation” is not rigorously defined in this discussion, and people use it to mean different things. Some people use it mean any form of social influence/persuasion (and may defend “manipulation”). Other people use it mean unethical social influence; I think we both share this usage.
I also disagree with fawning admiration of pickup artists who gain their fame by forms of unethical social influence. It’s not clear whether you are suggesting that all pickup artists engage in unethical social influence, or just some.
If it is necessary to refer admiringly to a pickup artist or pickup strategy (I’m not sure why it would be, but if), care should be taken to choose one whose methods are explicitly non-depersonalizing, and disclaim that specifically in the comment.
I would also advocate studying the methods of pickup artists who’s methods are non-depersonalizing. Or if depersonalizing methods are studied due to some relevance to rationality, I would prefer to see the depersonalizing aspect critiqued.
Attention to the privileges of masculinity and attempts to reduce that disparity. (Note that of course there are also female privileges, but until Less Wrong hosts custody battles or we start suspecting that some of us might be violent criminals, they are unlikely to come into play nearly so much in this location.)
I agree with attention to unjust advantages based on gender (“privilege” is another non-rigorous term that shouldn’t be used without a definition), as long as it runs both ways. I would caution you against assuming that the only systematic disadvantages men experience in society are in the legal system (but kudos for acknowledging the existence of some male disadvantages).
In Love in America, feminist sociologist Francesca Cancian argues that the conceptualization and discourse over love in Western is biased towards feminine expressions of love, and marginalizes masculine expressions of love. She calls this phenomenon the feminization of love.
While I mainly agree with your prescriptions, I disagree with your framing of the content of the discussions on less wrong that relate to gender. You say:
I suppose I could abandon the site and leave it even more masculine so the guys could all talk in their own language, unimpeded by stupid chicks being stupidly offended by completely unproblematic things like objectification and just plain jerkitude
You make the male discourse on the site sound a lot more unified than it actually is. In all objections you’ve made to certain discourse here, you have received substantial support by males (some of which you acknowledge, which makes me confused by your “masculine guys vs offended women” dichotomy in portraying LessWrong). In the example of “jerkitude” you cite, pjeby took the person involved to task and leveled multiple criticisms, such as a view of “entitlement.” So did ciphergoth.
Someone made arguments that came of as overgeneralized and sexist; others came and critiqued him vocally. Sounds like the working of a healthy rationalist community to me, not of a locker room full of uncritical fawning over PUAs.
Finally, your post might give the idea (which I don’t know whether you intend or not), that typical discussions on LessWrong that turn the subject of pickup are of a fawning nature. I think that this idea is false.
Personally, while I’ve always emphasized that pickup is relevant to rationality, I’ve included multiple criticisms of the community.
In this post, I accuse the seduction community of naive realism, and committing the availability heuristic in their model of women leading to oversimplification. In this post, I mention that some practices in the seduction community are unethical, and discuss my use of moral constraints on pickup techniques. In this post, I argue that some attitudes in the seduction community are overly cynical towards women, and detrimental to success in long-term relationships. In this post, I express skepticism that certain pickup theories are true even if they lead to success, and I suggest that the community falls prey to ideological thinking and that some of its techniques are morally questionable.
I actually have the creds to back up these criticisms. Btw, could you briefly list the pickup materials you have been exposed to so far so I can better qualify your claims about it?
Some of these posts attracted upvotes, but none attracted long threads. Maybe few people read them because I wasn’t controversial enough. What I think this shows is that the subject of pickup and seduction can be discussed in a manner that is both complimentary and critical (an example I’ve attempted to show with my past posts on the subject), yet other threads suggest that people are more interested in participating in polarizing discussions of the subject.
While this may simply be an oversight, your post fails to acknowledge more reasoned and less sexist discussion of pickup on LessWrong that is critical of it (like mine, at least in my hopes), and critiques of pickup ideology when it has been presented (e.g. pjeby’s critique of Sirducer’s posts), presented by some of the very people who think there is value in the community and discussing it on LessWrong. While I support your requests for non-sexist and gender neutral language, I think your portrayal of the discussions of pickup on LessWrong is skewed due to these omissions.
P.S. I am planning on getting back to you in the name thread… I’ve been enjoying that discussion.
Perhaps you’ve changed the wording on this post since I originally read it, because I have very little disagreement with your actual prescriptions in this post.
I haven’t, or if I have I am suffering from amnesia.
It’s not clear whether you are suggesting that all pickup artists engage in unethical social influence, or just some.
I have acknowledged that there are some tactics described by pickup artists that seem to me perfectly aboveboard ethics-wise. It is possible that some pickup artists use those tactics exclusively. I would not object to uncritical discussions of such artists, and do not object to uncritical discussions of such techniques.
would caution you against assuming that the only systematic disadvantages men experience in society are in the legal system
I don’t assume that; people who are not affiliated with the legal system can suspect others of being violent criminals and act accordingly in discriminatory ways.
You make the male discourse on the site sound a lot more unified than it actually is. In all objections you’ve made to certain discourse here, you have received substantial support by males (some of which you acknowledge, which makes me confused by your “masculine guys vs offended women” dichotomy in portraying LessWrong). In the example of “jerkitude” you cite, pjeby took the person involved to task and leveled multiple criticisms, such as a view of “entitlement.” So did ciphergoth.
The paragraph in question was a caricature. I did not intend that part to be an unaltered representation; people can read the original comments in their original contexts quite easily. I apologize if this was unclear.
Btw, could you briefly list the pickup materials you have been exposed to so far so I can better qualify your claims about it?
I read this blog and usually follow links people post in discussions on the subject here.
Before seeing your reply, I added this paragraph to the end of my post:
While this may simply be an oversight, your post fails to acknowledge more reasoned and less sexist discussion of pickup on LessWrong that is critical of it (like mine, at least in my hopes), and critiques of pickup ideology when it has been presented (e.g. pjeby’s critique of Sirducer’s posts), presented by some of the very people who think there is value in the community and discussing it on LessWrong. While I support your requests for non-sexist and gender neutral language, I think your portrayal of the discussions of pickup on LessWrong is skewed due to these omissions.
Continuing on:
I have acknowledged that there are some tactics described by pickup artists that seem to me perfectly aboveboard ethics-wise. It is possible that some pickup artists use those tactics exclusively. I would not object to uncritical discussions of such artists, and do not object to uncritical discussions of such techniques.
I acknowledge that you have acknowledged that some pickup tactics are ethics. Given that you wouldn’t object to discussions of such techniques, where why you suggesting a moratorium on discussion pickup in the other thread?
I don’t assume that; people who are not affiliated with the legal system can suspect others of being violent criminals and act accordingly in discriminatory ways.
Ok. When you said this:
Note that of course there are also female privileges, but until Less Wrong hosts custody battles or we start suspecting that some of us might be violent criminals, they are unlikely to come into play nearly so much in this location.
It sounded like you were saying that female advantages weren’t much of a concern other than particular legal advantages women may have over men. I was pointing out that there are other female advantages in society that may be more relevant to LessWrong, such as the tendency for female perspectives to be seen as the default in discussions about sexuality and romance (see Cancian work I cited on the “feminization of love”).
The paragraph in question was a caricature. I did not intend that part to be an unaltered representation; people can read the original comments in their original contexts quite easily. I apologize if this was unclear.
Thanks for clarifying. Still, I think your post in general gives a skewed account of the discussions on pickup on LessWrong; see the paragraph I added into my previous post and quote at the beginning of this one. Consequently, it bothers me that people are considering a moratorium on discussion of pickup partly due to a skewed idea they might have gotten from reading your original post.
I read this blog and usually follow links people post in discussions on the subject here.
I suspect that these materials are insufficient to get an idea of the breadth of the views in the seduction community. For instance, in How to be a Pickup Artist, Juggler argues that pickup:
also takes honesty. You probably didn’t expect to see that word in a book on picking up women. Surprise. A true pick-up artist is not a player. While a player schemes and hides and sneaks around to get in an extra bit on his girlfriend or wife, the pick-up
artist has neither the inkling nor time to do that. He seeks to be straight with the women who are involved with him. He has contempt for dishonesty and considers the player an unskilled opportunist. (p. 2)
Here’s another couple links for you here and here, demonstrating the extreme “inner game” approach. The Authentic Man Program wouldn’t consider themselves part of the pickup community, yet many of the guys who do AMP’s programs are into pickup, they advertise in the community, and I see them as basically involved in the same kind of self-improvement project with a different focus.
I think your portrayal of the discussions of pickup on LessWrong is skewed due to these omissions.
I wasn’t trying to represent the entirety of the discussion on Less Wrong. I was pointing out a problem, and some examples of what might resemble a solution. Your comments don’t strike me as problematic enough to call out or solution-esque enough to laud.
Given that you wouldn’t object to discussions of such techniques, where why you suggesting a moratorium on discussion pickup in the other thread?
Because, as I said, I don’t think it’s likely that a less clear-cut, brightly-outlined policy will have an adequate effect.
I appreciate the links, but pickup is not a special interest of mine. It is not obvious to me that spending additional time immersing myself in the many and varied types of pickup is something I should do. I’ve acknowledged that it is a mixed bag; the kinds that are mentioned in the posts I point out as problems may or may not be fully representative, but those posts are still problems.
I wasn’t trying to represent the entirety of the discussion on Less Wrong. I was pointing out a problem, and some examples of what might resemble a solution. Your comments don’t strike me as problematic enough to call out or solution-esque enough to laud.
You may not have intended to represent the entirety of the discussion of pickup on LessWrong, but it seems that others may read your post this way leading to a moral panic.
I appreciate the links, but pickup is not a special interest of mine. It is not obvious to me that spending additional time immersing myself in the many and varied types of pickup is something I should do. I’ve acknowledged that it is a mixed bag; the kinds that are mentioned in the posts I point out as problems may or may not be fully representative, but those posts are still problems.
Right, I agree that those posts exhibit problems. And those posts were roundly criticized. Why is a dogpile of critical comments not enough of a solution? I’ll address your other comment you linked to separately.
P.S. In case you’re wondering, I’m not the one downvoting your last couple comments.
Why is a dogpile of critical comments not enough of a solution?
I guess I don’t see it as quite the “dogpile” you do, especially since I feel the need to chime in about it very frequently and (as I said in the toplevel post) this isn’t my hobby or anything. I do not want the job; I’d rather hang back, sling votes occasionally, maybe identify simple flaws like misquotes.
ciphergoth’s comment was appreciated. As for pjeby, I have (apparently) misunderstood him on such a regular basis that I’m not confident in identifying him as being on any particular side of any particular disagreement. Three people, one of whom is arguably ambiguous and at least one of whom doesn’t want to be there, is a fairly pathetic dogpile.
How many dogs it takes to make a dogpile, and how enthusiastic those dogs must be, is really a side question.
The point is that Sirducer encountered significant and vigorous disagreement, disagreement that I think would have been worth mentioning in your original post. And it was from one the people interested in discussing pickup on LessWrong, a category that you seem to think is unreliable for having valuable discussions on this subject. See some highlights from the rather harsh comment by pjeby:
Honestly, though, based on the entitlement attitude you’ve been showing, I suspect the reason your “honest” approach flopped was a function of your inner game, not of the women.[...]
To me, that says it’s not the women. It’s you.[...]
So frankly, you sound like you don’t like women or yourself very much. That, IMO, is the “something wrong with this”.[...]
Regardless of whether pjeby is generally on your “side,” he sounds like he is in that post. Also, in terms of debunking a problematic post by a PUA, someone with insider knowledge can supply a lot more credibility, and the PUA will be less able to object that his interlocutor doesn’t get it or lacks field experience.
And it was from one the people interested in discussing pickup on LessWrong
Denotationally, the statement above is true, but connotationally, it’s false. My only “interest” in this area is correcting misconceptions and answering questions. If there are no questions to answer and no attacks or mistakes to correct, I am perfectly fine with never bringing the subject up myself. To the extent that PUA overlaps with topics of my interest, those topics also apply to marketing, and other less-controversial subjects.
Thanks for clarifying. The point I was using you to try to make was that people motivated to discuss this topic (for whatever reason) and who have some level of insider creds (which I accord to you because you actually know what you are talking about on this subject and have experience) already police each other in ways not acknowledged by the original post, which also contradicts the panic about LessWrong threads turning into locker rooms.
I understand that, but I also don’t really want to be the PUA police any more than (I understand) Alicorn wants to be the feminism police.
(Also, it’s inaccurate to describe me as having PUA experience. I simply have some experiences that support the usefulness of certain ideas proposed by PUAs. Amongst actual PUA’s I would be considered a “keyboard jockey” or “rAFC” at best.)
Alicorn, perhaps you’ve changed the wording on this post since I originally read it, because though my initial reaction was negative, upon writing a reply I have very little disagreement with your actual prescriptions in this post. I do have some disagreements with your framing of the discourse on LessWrong.
“Objectification” can be a difficult term due to people defining it in different ways. Yet given the way you define it here, I agree with advocating against talking about or treating people in a way that denies their autonomy or depersonalizes them.
Whether particular examples exhibit objectification is another question. I don’t think that phrases such as “getting women” necessarily implies objectification, but since it is often used in that way, I think it’s worthwhile to expend a little bit more effort to avoid it.
I agree on the issue of pronouns. “They” isn’t really that bad.
As for generalizations: if data is not provided, then whatever evidence (e.g. anecdotes) leads to that notion should be presented, and/or the speculative nature of the claim should be acknowledged.
“Manipulation” is not rigorously defined in this discussion, and people use it to mean different things. Some people use it mean any form of social influence/persuasion (and may defend “manipulation”). Other people use it mean unethical social influence; I think we both share this usage.
I also disagree with fawning admiration of pickup artists who gain their fame by forms of unethical social influence. It’s not clear whether you are suggesting that all pickup artists engage in unethical social influence, or just some.
I would also advocate studying the methods of pickup artists who’s methods are non-depersonalizing. Or if depersonalizing methods are studied due to some relevance to rationality, I would prefer to see the depersonalizing aspect critiqued.
I agree with attention to unjust advantages based on gender (“privilege” is another non-rigorous term that shouldn’t be used without a definition), as long as it runs both ways. I would caution you against assuming that the only systematic disadvantages men experience in society are in the legal system (but kudos for acknowledging the existence of some male disadvantages).
In Love in America, feminist sociologist Francesca Cancian argues that the conceptualization and discourse over love in Western is biased towards feminine expressions of love, and marginalizes masculine expressions of love. She calls this phenomenon the feminization of love.
While I mainly agree with your prescriptions, I disagree with your framing of the content of the discussions on less wrong that relate to gender. You say:
You make the male discourse on the site sound a lot more unified than it actually is. In all objections you’ve made to certain discourse here, you have received substantial support by males (some of which you acknowledge, which makes me confused by your “masculine guys vs offended women” dichotomy in portraying LessWrong). In the example of “jerkitude” you cite, pjeby took the person involved to task and leveled multiple criticisms, such as a view of “entitlement.” So did ciphergoth.
Someone made arguments that came of as overgeneralized and sexist; others came and critiqued him vocally. Sounds like the working of a healthy rationalist community to me, not of a locker room full of uncritical fawning over PUAs.
Finally, your post might give the idea (which I don’t know whether you intend or not), that typical discussions on LessWrong that turn the subject of pickup are of a fawning nature. I think that this idea is false.
Personally, while I’ve always emphasized that pickup is relevant to rationality, I’ve included multiple criticisms of the community.
In this post, I accuse the seduction community of naive realism, and committing the availability heuristic in their model of women leading to oversimplification. In this post, I mention that some practices in the seduction community are unethical, and discuss my use of moral constraints on pickup techniques. In this post, I argue that some attitudes in the seduction community are overly cynical towards women, and detrimental to success in long-term relationships. In this post, I express skepticism that certain pickup theories are true even if they lead to success, and I suggest that the community falls prey to ideological thinking and that some of its techniques are morally questionable.
I actually have the creds to back up these criticisms. Btw, could you briefly list the pickup materials you have been exposed to so far so I can better qualify your claims about it?
Some of these posts attracted upvotes, but none attracted long threads. Maybe few people read them because I wasn’t controversial enough. What I think this shows is that the subject of pickup and seduction can be discussed in a manner that is both complimentary and critical (an example I’ve attempted to show with my past posts on the subject), yet other threads suggest that people are more interested in participating in polarizing discussions of the subject.
While this may simply be an oversight, your post fails to acknowledge more reasoned and less sexist discussion of pickup on LessWrong that is critical of it (like mine, at least in my hopes), and critiques of pickup ideology when it has been presented (e.g. pjeby’s critique of Sirducer’s posts), presented by some of the very people who think there is value in the community and discussing it on LessWrong. While I support your requests for non-sexist and gender neutral language, I think your portrayal of the discussions of pickup on LessWrong is skewed due to these omissions.
P.S. I am planning on getting back to you in the name thread… I’ve been enjoying that discussion.
I haven’t, or if I have I am suffering from amnesia.
I have acknowledged that there are some tactics described by pickup artists that seem to me perfectly aboveboard ethics-wise. It is possible that some pickup artists use those tactics exclusively. I would not object to uncritical discussions of such artists, and do not object to uncritical discussions of such techniques.
I don’t assume that; people who are not affiliated with the legal system can suspect others of being violent criminals and act accordingly in discriminatory ways.
The paragraph in question was a caricature. I did not intend that part to be an unaltered representation; people can read the original comments in their original contexts quite easily. I apologize if this was unclear.
I read this blog and usually follow links people post in discussions on the subject here.
Before seeing your reply, I added this paragraph to the end of my post:
Continuing on:
I acknowledge that you have acknowledged that some pickup tactics are ethics. Given that you wouldn’t object to discussions of such techniques, where why you suggesting a moratorium on discussion pickup in the other thread?
Ok. When you said this:
It sounded like you were saying that female advantages weren’t much of a concern other than particular legal advantages women may have over men. I was pointing out that there are other female advantages in society that may be more relevant to LessWrong, such as the tendency for female perspectives to be seen as the default in discussions about sexuality and romance (see Cancian work I cited on the “feminization of love”).
Thanks for clarifying. Still, I think your post in general gives a skewed account of the discussions on pickup on LessWrong; see the paragraph I added into my previous post and quote at the beginning of this one. Consequently, it bothers me that people are considering a moratorium on discussion of pickup partly due to a skewed idea they might have gotten from reading your original post.
I suspect that these materials are insufficient to get an idea of the breadth of the views in the seduction community. For instance, in How to be a Pickup Artist, Juggler argues that pickup:
Here’s another couple links for you here and here, demonstrating the extreme “inner game” approach. The Authentic Man Program wouldn’t consider themselves part of the pickup community, yet many of the guys who do AMP’s programs are into pickup, they advertise in the community, and I see them as basically involved in the same kind of self-improvement project with a different focus.
I wasn’t trying to represent the entirety of the discussion on Less Wrong. I was pointing out a problem, and some examples of what might resemble a solution. Your comments don’t strike me as problematic enough to call out or solution-esque enough to laud.
Because, as I said, I don’t think it’s likely that a less clear-cut, brightly-outlined policy will have an adequate effect.
I appreciate the links, but pickup is not a special interest of mine. It is not obvious to me that spending additional time immersing myself in the many and varied types of pickup is something I should do. I’ve acknowledged that it is a mixed bag; the kinds that are mentioned in the posts I point out as problems may or may not be fully representative, but those posts are still problems.
You may not have intended to represent the entirety of the discussion of pickup on LessWrong, but it seems that others may read your post this way leading to a moral panic.
Right, I agree that those posts exhibit problems. And those posts were roundly criticized. Why is a dogpile of critical comments not enough of a solution? I’ll address your other comment you linked to separately.
P.S. In case you’re wondering, I’m not the one downvoting your last couple comments.
I guess I don’t see it as quite the “dogpile” you do, especially since I feel the need to chime in about it very frequently and (as I said in the toplevel post) this isn’t my hobby or anything. I do not want the job; I’d rather hang back, sling votes occasionally, maybe identify simple flaws like misquotes.
I’m thinking of the example with Sirducer, specifically. You, pjeby, and ciphergoth jumped on him. Sounds like a dogpile to me.
ciphergoth’s comment was appreciated. As for pjeby, I have (apparently) misunderstood him on such a regular basis that I’m not confident in identifying him as being on any particular side of any particular disagreement. Three people, one of whom is arguably ambiguous and at least one of whom doesn’t want to be there, is a fairly pathetic dogpile.
How many dogs it takes to make a dogpile, and how enthusiastic those dogs must be, is really a side question.
The point is that Sirducer encountered significant and vigorous disagreement, disagreement that I think would have been worth mentioning in your original post. And it was from one the people interested in discussing pickup on LessWrong, a category that you seem to think is unreliable for having valuable discussions on this subject. See some highlights from the rather harsh comment by pjeby:
Regardless of whether pjeby is generally on your “side,” he sounds like he is in that post. Also, in terms of debunking a problematic post by a PUA, someone with insider knowledge can supply a lot more credibility, and the PUA will be less able to object that his interlocutor doesn’t get it or lacks field experience.
Denotationally, the statement above is true, but connotationally, it’s false. My only “interest” in this area is correcting misconceptions and answering questions. If there are no questions to answer and no attacks or mistakes to correct, I am perfectly fine with never bringing the subject up myself. To the extent that PUA overlaps with topics of my interest, those topics also apply to marketing, and other less-controversial subjects.
Thanks for clarifying. The point I was using you to try to make was that people motivated to discuss this topic (for whatever reason) and who have some level of insider creds (which I accord to you because you actually know what you are talking about on this subject and have experience) already police each other in ways not acknowledged by the original post, which also contradicts the panic about LessWrong threads turning into locker rooms.
I understand that, but I also don’t really want to be the PUA police any more than (I understand) Alicorn wants to be the feminism police.
(Also, it’s inaccurate to describe me as having PUA experience. I simply have some experiences that support the usefulness of certain ideas proposed by PUAs. Amongst actual PUA’s I would be considered a “keyboard jockey” or “rAFC” at best.)