I think your portrayal of the discussions of pickup on LessWrong is skewed due to these omissions.
I wasn’t trying to represent the entirety of the discussion on Less Wrong. I was pointing out a problem, and some examples of what might resemble a solution. Your comments don’t strike me as problematic enough to call out or solution-esque enough to laud.
Given that you wouldn’t object to discussions of such techniques, where why you suggesting a moratorium on discussion pickup in the other thread?
Because, as I said, I don’t think it’s likely that a less clear-cut, brightly-outlined policy will have an adequate effect.
I appreciate the links, but pickup is not a special interest of mine. It is not obvious to me that spending additional time immersing myself in the many and varied types of pickup is something I should do. I’ve acknowledged that it is a mixed bag; the kinds that are mentioned in the posts I point out as problems may or may not be fully representative, but those posts are still problems.
I wasn’t trying to represent the entirety of the discussion on Less Wrong. I was pointing out a problem, and some examples of what might resemble a solution. Your comments don’t strike me as problematic enough to call out or solution-esque enough to laud.
You may not have intended to represent the entirety of the discussion of pickup on LessWrong, but it seems that others may read your post this way leading to a moral panic.
I appreciate the links, but pickup is not a special interest of mine. It is not obvious to me that spending additional time immersing myself in the many and varied types of pickup is something I should do. I’ve acknowledged that it is a mixed bag; the kinds that are mentioned in the posts I point out as problems may or may not be fully representative, but those posts are still problems.
Right, I agree that those posts exhibit problems. And those posts were roundly criticized. Why is a dogpile of critical comments not enough of a solution? I’ll address your other comment you linked to separately.
P.S. In case you’re wondering, I’m not the one downvoting your last couple comments.
Why is a dogpile of critical comments not enough of a solution?
I guess I don’t see it as quite the “dogpile” you do, especially since I feel the need to chime in about it very frequently and (as I said in the toplevel post) this isn’t my hobby or anything. I do not want the job; I’d rather hang back, sling votes occasionally, maybe identify simple flaws like misquotes.
ciphergoth’s comment was appreciated. As for pjeby, I have (apparently) misunderstood him on such a regular basis that I’m not confident in identifying him as being on any particular side of any particular disagreement. Three people, one of whom is arguably ambiguous and at least one of whom doesn’t want to be there, is a fairly pathetic dogpile.
How many dogs it takes to make a dogpile, and how enthusiastic those dogs must be, is really a side question.
The point is that Sirducer encountered significant and vigorous disagreement, disagreement that I think would have been worth mentioning in your original post. And it was from one the people interested in discussing pickup on LessWrong, a category that you seem to think is unreliable for having valuable discussions on this subject. See some highlights from the rather harsh comment by pjeby:
Honestly, though, based on the entitlement attitude you’ve been showing, I suspect the reason your “honest” approach flopped was a function of your inner game, not of the women.[...]
To me, that says it’s not the women. It’s you.[...]
So frankly, you sound like you don’t like women or yourself very much. That, IMO, is the “something wrong with this”.[...]
Regardless of whether pjeby is generally on your “side,” he sounds like he is in that post. Also, in terms of debunking a problematic post by a PUA, someone with insider knowledge can supply a lot more credibility, and the PUA will be less able to object that his interlocutor doesn’t get it or lacks field experience.
And it was from one the people interested in discussing pickup on LessWrong
Denotationally, the statement above is true, but connotationally, it’s false. My only “interest” in this area is correcting misconceptions and answering questions. If there are no questions to answer and no attacks or mistakes to correct, I am perfectly fine with never bringing the subject up myself. To the extent that PUA overlaps with topics of my interest, those topics also apply to marketing, and other less-controversial subjects.
Thanks for clarifying. The point I was using you to try to make was that people motivated to discuss this topic (for whatever reason) and who have some level of insider creds (which I accord to you because you actually know what you are talking about on this subject and have experience) already police each other in ways not acknowledged by the original post, which also contradicts the panic about LessWrong threads turning into locker rooms.
I understand that, but I also don’t really want to be the PUA police any more than (I understand) Alicorn wants to be the feminism police.
(Also, it’s inaccurate to describe me as having PUA experience. I simply have some experiences that support the usefulness of certain ideas proposed by PUAs. Amongst actual PUA’s I would be considered a “keyboard jockey” or “rAFC” at best.)
I wasn’t trying to represent the entirety of the discussion on Less Wrong. I was pointing out a problem, and some examples of what might resemble a solution. Your comments don’t strike me as problematic enough to call out or solution-esque enough to laud.
Because, as I said, I don’t think it’s likely that a less clear-cut, brightly-outlined policy will have an adequate effect.
I appreciate the links, but pickup is not a special interest of mine. It is not obvious to me that spending additional time immersing myself in the many and varied types of pickup is something I should do. I’ve acknowledged that it is a mixed bag; the kinds that are mentioned in the posts I point out as problems may or may not be fully representative, but those posts are still problems.
You may not have intended to represent the entirety of the discussion of pickup on LessWrong, but it seems that others may read your post this way leading to a moral panic.
Right, I agree that those posts exhibit problems. And those posts were roundly criticized. Why is a dogpile of critical comments not enough of a solution? I’ll address your other comment you linked to separately.
P.S. In case you’re wondering, I’m not the one downvoting your last couple comments.
I guess I don’t see it as quite the “dogpile” you do, especially since I feel the need to chime in about it very frequently and (as I said in the toplevel post) this isn’t my hobby or anything. I do not want the job; I’d rather hang back, sling votes occasionally, maybe identify simple flaws like misquotes.
I’m thinking of the example with Sirducer, specifically. You, pjeby, and ciphergoth jumped on him. Sounds like a dogpile to me.
ciphergoth’s comment was appreciated. As for pjeby, I have (apparently) misunderstood him on such a regular basis that I’m not confident in identifying him as being on any particular side of any particular disagreement. Three people, one of whom is arguably ambiguous and at least one of whom doesn’t want to be there, is a fairly pathetic dogpile.
How many dogs it takes to make a dogpile, and how enthusiastic those dogs must be, is really a side question.
The point is that Sirducer encountered significant and vigorous disagreement, disagreement that I think would have been worth mentioning in your original post. And it was from one the people interested in discussing pickup on LessWrong, a category that you seem to think is unreliable for having valuable discussions on this subject. See some highlights from the rather harsh comment by pjeby:
Regardless of whether pjeby is generally on your “side,” he sounds like he is in that post. Also, in terms of debunking a problematic post by a PUA, someone with insider knowledge can supply a lot more credibility, and the PUA will be less able to object that his interlocutor doesn’t get it or lacks field experience.
Denotationally, the statement above is true, but connotationally, it’s false. My only “interest” in this area is correcting misconceptions and answering questions. If there are no questions to answer and no attacks or mistakes to correct, I am perfectly fine with never bringing the subject up myself. To the extent that PUA overlaps with topics of my interest, those topics also apply to marketing, and other less-controversial subjects.
Thanks for clarifying. The point I was using you to try to make was that people motivated to discuss this topic (for whatever reason) and who have some level of insider creds (which I accord to you because you actually know what you are talking about on this subject and have experience) already police each other in ways not acknowledged by the original post, which also contradicts the panic about LessWrong threads turning into locker rooms.
I understand that, but I also don’t really want to be the PUA police any more than (I understand) Alicorn wants to be the feminism police.
(Also, it’s inaccurate to describe me as having PUA experience. I simply have some experiences that support the usefulness of certain ideas proposed by PUAs. Amongst actual PUA’s I would be considered a “keyboard jockey” or “rAFC” at best.)