This is fucking disgusting and deeply disturbing. From the perspective of someone who has never been to the Bay Area the “rationalist atmosphere” there does not seem healthy.
Disagree, at least in my experience. I’ve lived in Berkeley since 2022. I’ve never seen (or directly heard about) the aggressive psychological stuff and cults. I’ve never met the relevant people. I’ve known one person who invited Vassar to her events (but idk at what points he’s lived around here) and shared google docs with him; it is very rare and surprising to see his name on events or google docs; I don’t recall seeing either since 2023. From my perspective it looks like the community has successfully exiled the obviously bad actors.
That said, I do select for wholesome and professional environments; I’m less likely than median to see bad actors.
Vassar and crew pick targets pretty carefully. If you have good social instincts, strong mental boundaries, and a healthy moral compass, he will try to cut you out of his circles too.
For what it is worth, I met Michael Vassar on an after-party to an event when I was at Lighthaven in 2025. So I assume he is still allowed on the Lighthaven premises under some circumstances? If I had known that he is banned I would have let someone know. Pretty sure it was him because I recognized him from YouTube, and he was talking about dumb things like trying to convince Elon Musk to use the power with DOGE to keep printing money to disempower the US government. The only reason I actually stuck around was to calibrate and compare my impressions of Michael Vassar compared to what I read about him online. Mostly I was confused why people like talking with him, he didn’t seem very insightful nor manipulative to me at all, but to be fair he was already slightly intoxicated. Maybe I am too psychologically healthy, and also he didn’t want to get anything from me.
I have seen him show up at multiple different events/venues he is explicitly banned from. I believe he is well aware he is not welcome and decides to enter these places anyhow.
It would have been nice if Ben’s root comment had explained this distinction upfront, because it has meaningful impacts on how allies may want to interact with the space. Would you let an organization host an event at Lighthaven where Vassar is a featured speaker?
Makes sense, I’ll try to be clearer about that in future.
(As to your question, I don’t have a clear yes/no, would depend a lot on context. I care a lot about events at the space feeling comfortable setting their own attendee list, even if sometimes that means having people there who I think have terrible character and/or have committed terrible deeds.)
Among other reasons, because many people won’t notice the nuance, and may conclude “I saw Vassar in Lighthaven, so… I guess he is a member of the rationality community in good standing”. Especially because Vassar is there, and can support that mistake; but you won’t be there to explain the fine points of the Lightcone policy.
Do not infer that someone is a member in good standing from being at Lighthaven! That is not how this works, and it’s not the point of Lighthaven, and people should stop trying to make it be the case. We’ve had Sam Altman here, we will have many other lab executives here.
Definitely the average visitor, who is an attendee of a random conference and knows that they don’t have a high-trust relationship with me or anyone else in the ecosystem, because they have probably just heard about it.
And then, for people who have more context, I have been pretty explicit in all of my communications around Lighthaven on this. Even if people don’t get it now they will get it eventually after seeing enough people who this obviously doesn’t apply come through.
Most people visiting Lighthaven are attending a specific event (e.g. MATS, Progress Conference, Vitalist Bay, etc) and expect that the event runner has chosen the people there. There are some people who primarily know it for Lightcone events (e.g. LessOnline, Inkhaven) who might think it, there are some people who have never heard of LessWrong and are there for a specific event (e.g. wedding guests, various research conferences, etc) who would definitely not think it.
It’s also importantly the case that I don’t respect either guilt-by-association nor trust-by-association as a way of relating to people and their relationships, and won’t avoid business relationships even if a bunch of people are foolishly assuming we do that kind of thing.
What would be your bar from banning someone from Lighthaven fully? Feel free to ignore if you would rather not be pinned to it, or if it you feel it may encourage bad behaviour.
I don’t know how much was transitioned from REACH to Lightcone, but he was banned from REACH in late 2018/early 2019, after Kathy Forth’s suicide and Jax Bryk’s call-out thread. (cc @testingthewaters)
He was also really really working hard to get unbanned from community spaces during that time. I think he maybe threatened REACH with legal action, but I’m not entirely sure of this.
He has gotten lots of his acolytes to go to events there on his behalf though. Manifold 2024 was absolutely crawling with them, even if he himself didn’t come.
Thanks for adding this context. I guess there is also a formal/informal distinction (what happens in formal events vs what happens in informal social circles).
This is not representative of the “rationalist atmosphere”.
I think it’s about analogous to the different cultures in New York vs. Boston vs. Mimi vs. Rural Tennessee vs. Austin vs. Portland vs. Atlanta. Yes, the culture of all of those places do have some common thread of “Americanness”, but they’re also extremely different from each other. The people in each of those locals have different norms and priorities and will treat strangers differently.
It’s like I live in Boston and someone writes a hard to follow post about the seedy parts of Detroit. It’s not the case that Detroits problems are not at all my problems, but I’m not like “wow, this must mean my culture is totally fried.”
This is fucking disgusting and deeply disturbing. From the perspective of someone who has never been to the Bay Area the “rationalist atmosphere” there does not seem healthy.
Disagree, at least in my experience. I’ve lived in Berkeley since 2022. I’ve never seen (or directly heard about) the aggressive psychological stuff and cults. I’ve never met the relevant people. I’ve known one person who invited Vassar to her events (but idk at what points he’s lived around here) and shared google docs with him; it is very rare and surprising to see his name on events or google docs; I don’t recall seeing either since 2023. From my perspective it looks like the community has successfully exiled the obviously bad actors.
That said, I do select for wholesome and professional environments; I’m less likely than median to see bad actors.
Vassar and crew pick targets pretty carefully. If you have good social instincts, strong mental boundaries, and a healthy moral compass, he will try to cut you out of his circles too.
I don’t agree: Vassar has been uninvited from Lightcone events for many years (I think since 2021, when we started properly running events).
For what it is worth, I met Michael Vassar on an after-party to an event when I was at Lighthaven in 2025. So I assume he is still allowed on the Lighthaven premises under some circumstances? If I had known that he is banned I would have let someone know. Pretty sure it was him because I recognized him from YouTube, and he was talking about dumb things like trying to convince Elon Musk to use the power with DOGE to keep printing money to disempower the US government. The only reason I actually stuck around was to calibrate and compare my impressions of Michael Vassar compared to what I read about him online. Mostly I was confused why people like talking with him, he didn’t seem very insightful nor manipulative to me at all, but to be fair he was already slightly intoxicated. Maybe I am too psychologically healthy, and also he didn’t want to get anything from me.
I have seen him show up at multiple different events/venues he is explicitly banned from. I believe he is well aware he is not welcome and decides to enter these places anyhow.
Lightcone events =/= Lighthaven
Orgs renting Lighthaven space for money get to decide their own safety policies.
Correct, our bar for banning someone from Lighthaven in full generality, even for your private event where you can do whatever, is much much higher.
It would have been nice if Ben’s root comment had explained this distinction upfront, because it has meaningful impacts on how allies may want to interact with the space. Would you let an organization host an event at Lighthaven where Vassar is a featured speaker?
Makes sense, I’ll try to be clearer about that in future.
(As to your question, I don’t have a clear yes/no, would depend a lot on context. I care a lot about events at the space feeling comfortable setting their own attendee list, even if sometimes that means having people there who I think have terrible character and/or have committed terrible deeds.)
That sounds to me like a mistake.
Among other reasons, because many people won’t notice the nuance, and may conclude “I saw Vassar in Lighthaven, so… I guess he is a member of the rationality community in good standing”. Especially because Vassar is there, and can support that mistake; but you won’t be there to explain the fine points of the Lightcone policy.
Do not infer that someone is a member in good standing from being at Lighthaven! That is not how this works, and it’s not the point of Lighthaven, and people should stop trying to make it be the case. We’ve had Sam Altman here, we will have many other lab executives here.
Do you think that an average visitor of Lighthaven is clearly aware of this?
Definitely the average visitor, who is an attendee of a random conference and knows that they don’t have a high-trust relationship with me or anyone else in the ecosystem, because they have probably just heard about it.
And then, for people who have more context, I have been pretty explicit in all of my communications around Lighthaven on this. Even if people don’t get it now they will get it eventually after seeing enough people who this obviously doesn’t apply come through.
Most people visiting Lighthaven are attending a specific event (e.g. MATS, Progress Conference, Vitalist Bay, etc) and expect that the event runner has chosen the people there. There are some people who primarily know it for Lightcone events (e.g. LessOnline, Inkhaven) who might think it, there are some people who have never heard of LessWrong and are there for a specific event (e.g. wedding guests, various research conferences, etc) who would definitely not think it.
It’s also importantly the case that I don’t respect either guilt-by-association nor trust-by-association as a way of relating to people and their relationships, and won’t avoid business relationships even if a bunch of people are foolishly assuming we do that kind of thing.
It’s kind of like the opposite of guilt-by-association. Trust-by-association. Both are wrong.
What would be your bar from banning someone from Lighthaven fully? Feel free to ignore if you would rather not be pinned to it, or if it you feel it may encourage bad behaviour.
It’d be decided on a case by case basis, but I think more criminal behavior (theft, physical violence, stalkers) would meet that line.
I don’t know how much was transitioned from REACH to Lightcone, but he was banned from REACH in late 2018/early 2019, after Kathy Forth’s suicide and Jax Bryk’s call-out thread. (cc @testingthewaters)
He was also really really working hard to get unbanned from community spaces during that time. I think he maybe threatened REACH with legal action, but I’m not entirely sure of this.
I am pretty sure he threatened to sue REACH.
Yes. See comments here for what’s public that I know of. (cc @habryka)
He has gotten lots of his acolytes to go to events there on his behalf though. Manifold 2024 was absolutely crawling with them, even if he himself didn’t come.
Did you see evidence they were there at his behest?
Thanks for adding this context. I guess there is also a formal/informal distinction (what happens in formal events vs what happens in informal social circles).
Given these comments it seems that the border is more porous than I thought, so mostly reverting to the original comment’s position.
This is not representative of the “rationalist atmosphere”.
I think it’s about analogous to the different cultures in New York vs. Boston vs. Mimi vs. Rural Tennessee vs. Austin vs. Portland vs. Atlanta. Yes, the culture of all of those places do have some common thread of “Americanness”, but they’re also extremely different from each other. The people in each of those locals have different norms and priorities and will treat strangers differently.
It’s like I live in Boston and someone writes a hard to follow post about the seedy parts of Detroit. It’s not the case that Detroits problems are not at all my problems, but I’m not like “wow, this must mean my culture is totally fried.”