I can’t tell whether we’re arguing about the same thing.
Like, I assume that I am a neural net predicting things and deciding things and if you had full access to my brain you could (in principle, given sufficient time) understand everything that was going on in there. But, like, one way or another I experience the perception of perceiving things.
(I’d prefer to taboo ‘Qualia’ in case it has particular connotations I don’t share. Just ‘that thing where Ray perceives himself perceiving things, and perhaps the part where sometimes Ray has preferences about those perceptions of perceiving because the perceptions have valence.’ If that’s what Qualia means, cool, and if it means some other thing I’m not sure I care)
My current working model of “how this aspect of my perception works” is described in this comment, I guess easy enough to quote in full:
“Human brains contain two forms of knowledge: - explicit knowledge and weights that are used in implicit knowledge (admittedly the former is hacked on top of the later, but that isn’t relevant here). Mary doesn’t gain any extra explicit knowledge from seeing blue, but her brain changes some of her implicit weights so that when a blue object activates in her vision a sub-neural network can connect this to the label “blue”.”
The reason I care about any of this is that I believe that a “perceptions-having-valence” is probably morally relevant. (or, put in usual terms: suffering and pleasure seem morally relevant).
(I think it’s quite possibe that future-me will decide I was confused about this part, but it’s the part I care about anyhow)
Are you saying the my perceiving-that-I-perceive-things-with-valence is an illusion, and that I am in fact not doing that? Or some other thing?
(To be clear, I AM open to ‘actually Ray yes, the counterintuitive answer is that no, you’re not actually perceiving-that-you-perceive-things-and-some-of-the-perceptions-have-valence.’ The topic is clearly confusing and behind the veil of epistemic-ignorance it seems quite plausible I’m the confused one here. Just noting that so far that from way you’re phrasing things I can’t tell whether your claims map onto the things I care about )
Like, I assume that I am a neural net predicting things and deciding things and if you had full access to my brain you could (in principle, given sufficient time) understand everything that was going on in there. But, like, one way or another I experience the perception of perceiving things.
To me this is a bit like the claim of someone who claimed psychic powers but still wanted to believe in physics who would say, “I assume you could perfectly well understand what was going on at a behavioral level within my brain, but there is still a datum left unexplained: the datum of me having psychic powers.”
There are a number of ways to respond to the claim:
We could redefine psychic powers to include mere physical properties. This has the problem that psychics insist that psychic power is entirely separate from physical properties. Simple re-definition doesn’t make the intuition go away and doesn’t explain anything.
We could alternatively posit new physics which incorporates psychic powers. This has the occasional problem that it violates Occam’s razor, since the old physics was completely adequate. Hence the debunking argument I presented above.
Or, we could incorporate the phenomenon within a physical model by first denying that it exists and then explaining the mechanism which caused you to believe in it, and talk about it.
In the case of consciousness, the third response amounts to Illusionism, which is the view that I am defending. It has the advantage that it conservatively doesn’t promise to contradict known physics, and it also does justice to the intuition that consciousness really exists.
I’d prefer to taboo ‘Qualia’ in case it has particular connotations I don’t share. Just ‘that thing where Ray perceives himself perceiving things, and perhaps the part where sometimes Ray has preferences about those perceptions of perceiving because the perceptions have valence.’
To most philosophers who write about it, qualia is defined as the experience of what it’s like. Roughly speaking, I agree with thinking of it as a particular form of perception that we experience.
However, it’s not just any perception, since some perceptions can be unconscious perceptions. Qualia specifically refer to the qualitative aspects of our experience of the world: the taste of wine, the touch of fabric, the feeling of seeing blue, the suffering associated with physical pain etc. These are said to be directly apprehensible to our ‘internal movie’ that is playing inside our head. It is this type of property which I am applying the framework of illusionism to.
The reason I care about any of this is that I believe that a “perceptions-having-valence” is probably morally relevant.
I agree. That’s why I typically take the view that consciousness is a powerful illusion, and that we should take it seriously. Those who simply re-define consciousness as essentially a synonym for “perception” or “observation” or “information” are not doing justice to the fact that it’s the thing I care about in this world. I have a strong intuition that consciousness is what is valuable even despite the fact that I hold an illusionist view. To put it another way, I would care much less if you told me a computer was receiving a pain-signal (labeled in the code as some variable with suffering set to maximum), compared to the claim that a computer was actually suffering in the same way a human does.
Are you saying the my perceiving-that-I-perceive-things-with-valence is an illusion, and that I am in fact not doing that? Or some other thing?
Roughly speaking, yes. I am denying that that type of thing actually exists, including the valence claim.
Or, we could incorporate the phenomenon within a physical model by first denying that it exists and then explaining the mechanism which caused you to believe in it, and talk about it.
It still feels very important that you haven’t actually explained this.
In the case of psychic powers, I (think?) we actually have pretty good explanations for where perceptions of psychic powers comes from, which makes the perception of psychic powers non-mysterious. (i.e. we know how cold reading works, and how various kinds of confirmation bias play into divination). But, that was something that actually had to be explained.
It feels like you’re just changing the name of the confusing thing from ‘the fact that I seem conscious to myself’ to ‘the fact that I’m experiencing an illusion of consciousness.’ Cool, but, like, there’s still a mysterious thing that seems quite important to actually explain.
Also just in general, I disagree that skepticism is not progress. If I said, “I don’t believe in God because there’s nothing in the universe with those properties...” I don’t think it’s fair to say, “Cool, but like, I’m still praying to something right, and that needs to be explained” because I don’t think that speaks fully to what I just denied.
In the case of religion, many people have a very strong intuition that God exists. So, is the atheist position not progress because we have not explained this intuition?
I agree that skepticism generally can be important progress (I recently stumbled upon this old comment making a similar argument about how saying “not X” can be useful)
The difference between God and consciousness is that the interesting bit about consciousness *is* my perception of it, full stop. Unlike God or psychic powers, there is no separate thing from my perception of it that I’m interested in.
The difference between God and consciousness is that the interesting bit about consciousness *is* my perception of it, full stop.
If by perception you simply mean “You are an information processing device that takes signals in and outputs things” then this is entirely explicable on our current physical models, and I could dissolve the confusion fairly easily.
However, I think you have something else in mind which is that there is somehow something left out when I explain it by simply appealing to signal processing. In that sense, I think you are falling right into the trap! You would be doing something similar to the person who said, “But I am still praying to God!”
However, I think you have something else in mind which is that there is somehow something left out when I explain it by simply appealing to signal processing. In that sense,
I don’t have anything else in mind that I know of. “Explained via signal processing” seems basically sufficent. The interesting part is “how can you look at a given signal-processing-system, and predict in advance whether that system is the sort of thing that would talk* about Qualia, if it could talk?”
(I feel like this was all covered in the sequences, basically?)
*where “talk about qualia” is shorthand ‘would consider the concept of qualia important enough to have a concept for.’”
I mean, I agree that this was mostly covered in the sequences. But I also think that I disagree with the way that most people frame the debate. At least personally I have seen people who I know have read the sequences still make basic errors. So I’m just leaving this here to explain my point of view.
Intuition: On a first approximation, there is something that it is like to be us. In other words, we are beings who have qualia.
Counterintuition: In order for qualia to exist, there would need to exist entities which are private, ineffable, intrinsic, subjective and this can’t be since physics is public, effable, and objective and therefore contradicts the existence of qualia.
Intuition: But even if I agree with you that qualia don’t exist, there still seems to be something left unexplained.
Counterintuition: We can explain why you think there’s something unexplained because we can explain the cause of your belief in qualia, and why you think they have these properties. By explaining why you believe it we have explained all there is to explain.
Intuition: But you have merely said that we could explain it. You have not have actually explained it.
Counterintuition: Even without the precise explanation, we now have a paradigm for explaining consciousness, so it is not mysterious anymore.
We do not telepathically receive experiemnt results when they are performed. In reality you need ot intake the measumrent results from your first-person point of view (use eyes to read led screen or use ears to hear about stories of experiments performed). It seems to be taht experiments are intersubjective in that other observers will report having experiences that resemble my first-hand experiences. For most purposes shorthanding this to “public” is adequate enough. But your point of view is “unpublisable” in that even if you really tried there is no way to provide you private expereience to the public knowledge pool (“directly”). “I now how you feel” is a fiction it doesn’t actually happen.
Skeptisim about the experiencing of others is easier but being skeptical about your own experiences would seem to be ludicrous.
I am not denying that humans take in sensory input and process it using their internal neural networks. I am denying that process has any of the properties associated with consciousness in the philosophical sense. And I am making an additional claim which is that if you merely redefine consciousness so that it lacks these philosophical properties, you have not actually explained anything or dissolved any confusion.
The illusionist approach is the best approach because it simultaneously takes consciousness seriously and doesn’t contradict physics. By taking this approach we also have an understood paradigm for solving the hard problem of consciousness: namely, the hard problem is reduced to the meta-problem (see Chalmers).
It feels like you’re just changing the name of the confusing thing from ‘the fact that I seem conscious to myself’ to ‘the fact that I’m experiencing an illusion of consciousness.’ Cool, but, like, there’s still a mysterious thing that seems quite important to actually explain.
I don’t actually agree. Although I have not fully explained consciousness, I think that I have shown a lot.
In particular, I have shown us what the solution to the hard problem of consciousness would plausibly look like if we had unlimited funding and time. And to me, that’s important.
And under my view, it’s not going to look anything like, “Hey we discovered this mechanism in the brain that gives rise to consciousness.” No, it’s going to look more like, “Look at this mechanism in the brain that makes humans talk about things even though the things they are talking about have no real world referent.”
You might think that this is a useless achievement. I claim the contrary. As Chalmers points out, pretty much all the leading theories of consciousness fail the basic test of looking like an explanation rather than just sounding confused. Don’t believe me? Read Section 3 in this paper.
In short, Chalmers reviews the current state of the art in consciousness explanations. He first goes into Integrated Information Theory (IIT), but then convincingly shows that IIT fails to explain why we would talk about consciousness and believe in consciousness. He does the same for global workspace theories, first order representational theories, higher order theories, consciousness-causes-collapse theories, and panpsychism. Simply put, none of them even approach an adequate baseline of looking like an explanation.
I also believe that if you follow my view carefully you might stop being confused about a lot of things. Like, do animals feel pain? Well it depends on your definition of pain—consciousness is not real in any objective sense so this is a definition dispute. Same with asking whether person A is happier than person B, or asking whether computers will ever be conscious.
Perhaps this isn’t an achievement strictly speaking relative to the standard Lesswrong points of view. But that’s only because I think the standard Lesswrong point of view is correct. Yet even so, I still see people around me making fundamentally basic mistakes about consciousness. For instance, I see people treating consciousness as intrinsic, ineffable, private—or they think there’s an objectively right answer to whether animals feel pain and argue over this as if it’s not the same as a tree falling in a forest.
I can’t tell whether we’re arguing about the same thing.
Like, I assume that I am a neural net predicting things and deciding things and if you had full access to my brain you could (in principle, given sufficient time) understand everything that was going on in there. But, like, one way or another I experience the perception of perceiving things.
(I’d prefer to taboo ‘Qualia’ in case it has particular connotations I don’t share. Just ‘that thing where Ray perceives himself perceiving things, and perhaps the part where sometimes Ray has preferences about those perceptions of perceiving because the perceptions have valence.’ If that’s what Qualia means, cool, and if it means some other thing I’m not sure I care)
My current working model of “how this aspect of my perception works” is described in this comment, I guess easy enough to quote in full:
The reason I care about any of this is that I believe that a “perceptions-having-valence” is probably morally relevant. (or, put in usual terms: suffering and pleasure seem morally relevant).
(I think it’s quite possibe that future-me will decide I was confused about this part, but it’s the part I care about anyhow)
Are you saying the my perceiving-that-I-perceive-things-with-valence is an illusion, and that I am in fact not doing that? Or some other thing?
(To be clear, I AM open to ‘actually Ray yes, the counterintuitive answer is that no, you’re not actually perceiving-that-you-perceive-things-and-some-of-the-perceptions-have-valence.’ The topic is clearly confusing and behind the veil of epistemic-ignorance it seems quite plausible I’m the confused one here. Just noting that so far that from way you’re phrasing things I can’t tell whether your claims map onto the things I care about )
To me this is a bit like the claim of someone who claimed psychic powers but still wanted to believe in physics who would say, “I assume you could perfectly well understand what was going on at a behavioral level within my brain, but there is still a datum left unexplained: the datum of me having psychic powers.”
There are a number of ways to respond to the claim:
We could redefine psychic powers to include mere physical properties. This has the problem that psychics insist that psychic power is entirely separate from physical properties. Simple re-definition doesn’t make the intuition go away and doesn’t explain anything.
We could alternatively posit new physics which incorporates psychic powers. This has the occasional problem that it violates Occam’s razor, since the old physics was completely adequate. Hence the debunking argument I presented above.
Or, we could incorporate the phenomenon within a physical model by first denying that it exists and then explaining the mechanism which caused you to believe in it, and talk about it.
In the case of consciousness, the third response amounts to Illusionism, which is the view that I am defending. It has the advantage that it conservatively doesn’t promise to contradict known physics, and it also does justice to the intuition that consciousness really exists.
To most philosophers who write about it, qualia is defined as the experience of what it’s like. Roughly speaking, I agree with thinking of it as a particular form of perception that we experience.
However, it’s not just any perception, since some perceptions can be unconscious perceptions. Qualia specifically refer to the qualitative aspects of our experience of the world: the taste of wine, the touch of fabric, the feeling of seeing blue, the suffering associated with physical pain etc. These are said to be directly apprehensible to our ‘internal movie’ that is playing inside our head. It is this type of property which I am applying the framework of illusionism to.
I agree. That’s why I typically take the view that consciousness is a powerful illusion, and that we should take it seriously. Those who simply re-define consciousness as essentially a synonym for “perception” or “observation” or “information” are not doing justice to the fact that it’s the thing I care about in this world. I have a strong intuition that consciousness is what is valuable even despite the fact that I hold an illusionist view. To put it another way, I would care much less if you told me a computer was receiving a pain-signal (labeled in the code as some variable with suffering set to maximum), compared to the claim that a computer was actually suffering in the same way a human does.
Roughly speaking, yes. I am denying that that type of thing actually exists, including the valence claim.
It still feels very important that you haven’t actually explained this.
In the case of psychic powers, I (think?) we actually have pretty good explanations for where perceptions of psychic powers comes from, which makes the perception of psychic powers non-mysterious. (i.e. we know how cold reading works, and how various kinds of confirmation bias play into divination). But, that was something that actually had to be explained.
It feels like you’re just changing the name of the confusing thing from ‘the fact that I seem conscious to myself’ to ‘the fact that I’m experiencing an illusion of consciousness.’ Cool, but, like, there’s still a mysterious thing that seems quite important to actually explain.
Also just in general, I disagree that skepticism is not progress. If I said, “I don’t believe in God because there’s nothing in the universe with those properties...” I don’t think it’s fair to say, “Cool, but like, I’m still praying to something right, and that needs to be explained” because I don’t think that speaks fully to what I just denied.
In the case of religion, many people have a very strong intuition that God exists. So, is the atheist position not progress because we have not explained this intuition?
I agree that skepticism generally can be important progress (I recently stumbled upon this old comment making a similar argument about how saying “not X” can be useful)
The difference between God and consciousness is that the interesting bit about consciousness *is* my perception of it, full stop. Unlike God or psychic powers, there is no separate thing from my perception of it that I’m interested in.
If by perception you simply mean “You are an information processing device that takes signals in and outputs things” then this is entirely explicable on our current physical models, and I could dissolve the confusion fairly easily.
However, I think you have something else in mind which is that there is somehow something left out when I explain it by simply appealing to signal processing. In that sense, I think you are falling right into the trap! You would be doing something similar to the person who said, “But I am still praying to God!”
I don’t have anything else in mind that I know of. “Explained via signal processing” seems basically sufficent. The interesting part is “how can you look at a given signal-processing-system, and predict in advance whether that system is the sort of thing that would talk* about Qualia, if it could talk?”
(I feel like this was all covered in the sequences, basically?)
*where “talk about qualia” is shorthand ‘would consider the concept of qualia important enough to have a concept for.’”
I mean, I agree that this was mostly covered in the sequences. But I also think that I disagree with the way that most people frame the debate. At least personally I have seen people who I know have read the sequences still make basic errors. So I’m just leaving this here to explain my point of view.
Intuition: On a first approximation, there is something that it is like to be us. In other words, we are beings who have qualia.
Counterintuition: In order for qualia to exist, there would need to exist entities which are private, ineffable, intrinsic, subjective and this can’t be since physics is public, effable, and objective and therefore contradicts the existence of qualia.
Intuition: But even if I agree with you that qualia don’t exist, there still seems to be something left unexplained.
Counterintuition: We can explain why you think there’s something unexplained because we can explain the cause of your belief in qualia, and why you think they have these properties. By explaining why you believe it we have explained all there is to explain.
Intuition: But you have merely said that we could explain it. You have not have actually explained it.
Counterintuition: Even without the precise explanation, we now have a paradigm for explaining consciousness, so it is not mysterious anymore.
This is essentially the point where I leave.
Physics as map is. Note that we can’t compare the map directly to the territory.
We do not telepathically receive experiemnt results when they are performed. In reality you need ot intake the measumrent results from your first-person point of view (use eyes to read led screen or use ears to hear about stories of experiments performed). It seems to be taht experiments are intersubjective in that other observers will report having experiences that resemble my first-hand experiences. For most purposes shorthanding this to “public” is adequate enough. But your point of view is “unpublisable” in that even if you really tried there is no way to provide you private expereience to the public knowledge pool (“directly”). “I now how you feel” is a fiction it doesn’t actually happen.
Skeptisim about the experiencing of others is easier but being skeptical about your own experiences would seem to be ludicrous.
I am not denying that humans take in sensory input and process it using their internal neural networks. I am denying that process has any of the properties associated with consciousness in the philosophical sense. And I am making an additional claim which is that if you merely redefine consciousness so that it lacks these philosophical properties, you have not actually explained anything or dissolved any confusion.
The illusionist approach is the best approach because it simultaneously takes consciousness seriously and doesn’t contradict physics. By taking this approach we also have an understood paradigm for solving the hard problem of consciousness: namely, the hard problem is reduced to the meta-problem (see Chalmers).
I don’t actually agree. Although I have not fully explained consciousness, I think that I have shown a lot.
In particular, I have shown us what the solution to the hard problem of consciousness would plausibly look like if we had unlimited funding and time. And to me, that’s important.
And under my view, it’s not going to look anything like, “Hey we discovered this mechanism in the brain that gives rise to consciousness.” No, it’s going to look more like, “Look at this mechanism in the brain that makes humans talk about things even though the things they are talking about have no real world referent.”
You might think that this is a useless achievement. I claim the contrary. As Chalmers points out, pretty much all the leading theories of consciousness fail the basic test of looking like an explanation rather than just sounding confused. Don’t believe me? Read Section 3 in this paper.
In short, Chalmers reviews the current state of the art in consciousness explanations. He first goes into Integrated Information Theory (IIT), but then convincingly shows that IIT fails to explain why we would talk about consciousness and believe in consciousness. He does the same for global workspace theories, first order representational theories, higher order theories, consciousness-causes-collapse theories, and panpsychism. Simply put, none of them even approach an adequate baseline of looking like an explanation.
I also believe that if you follow my view carefully you might stop being confused about a lot of things. Like, do animals feel pain? Well it depends on your definition of pain—consciousness is not real in any objective sense so this is a definition dispute. Same with asking whether person A is happier than person B, or asking whether computers will ever be conscious.
Perhaps this isn’t an achievement strictly speaking relative to the standard Lesswrong points of view. But that’s only because I think the standard Lesswrong point of view is correct. Yet even so, I still see people around me making fundamentally basic mistakes about consciousness. For instance, I see people treating consciousness as intrinsic, ineffable, private—or they think there’s an objectively right answer to whether animals feel pain and argue over this as if it’s not the same as a tree falling in a forest.