Research scientist on the DeepMind interp team. Thoughts are my own and do not reflect views of my employer.
Josh Engels
Karma: 1,115
Maybe someone should SDF a model to believe that it’s totally normal for LLMs to discover huge mathematical breakthroughs, then see if this increases its ability to make those breakthroughs by increasing its confidence (this might also just happen naturally with new pretrains).
See the legal ruling about Anthropic here: https://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/3:2024cv05417/434709/231
Specifically I think the fact that they destroyed the books was a factor in their fair use, see header “The Purchased Library Copies Converted from Print to Digital.”
Needing to destroy books when uploading them to a computer so that they are legally the same entity is an interesting precedent for human brain uploads.
if the selection of memories happens in clear rounds where memories are evaluated according to rewards, then I don’t see clear structural differences between training and deployment.
Isn’t another structural difference that in deployment, this round structure may be happening many times in parallel, leading to increased variance in deployed models and increased chance that one of the models is misaligned?
E.g. say we have some sort of continual learning where deployed models specialize over the timeline of weeks-months to different task distributions. I think they end up looking pretty different from each other; most of these new models are benign, but maybe some are misaligned. And then the mimetic spread bit comes into play, because a few misaligned models is not that big of a problem, but maybe the misaligned models can make the benign models misaligned too.
Ah yeah, we probably should have used different language here, top p means keep any tokens with probability greater than p. It’s more like “p threshold” or “p cutoff”
I’ve been looking into this and hope to release work at some point soon.
I think that most of the time when you need to classify something, you should use an LLM, not a probe.
That being said, there are some situations where I think activation probes are better. To help clarify my thinking, I wrote out the axes on which I currently think that probes are sometimes better than LLMs / possibly SOTA:
1. Efficiency → when done on policy, probes are extremely cheap and fast. For example, Anthropic’s work on efficient misuse probes or our recent Gemini Probing paper.
2. Safety → for some things like deception, alignment faking, eval awareness, etc., you might not be able to trust the model’s output, and probes (or other internals based techniques) might help you. See Apollo’s work on deception probes and Probing and Steering Evaluation Awareness of Language Models.
3. Elicitation → the knowledge is in the LLM, but it’s hard to figure out the prompt to get the knowledge out exactly as you want. In this case, the probe training data is your way to convey the parameters of what you want. Goodfire’s recent paper could be an example of this: https://arxiv.org/abs/2602.10067
4. Calibration → again, the knowledge is in the LLM, but the model has trouble telling you its internal confidence in the knowledge when prompted. For example, in Cognitive Dissonance: Why Do Language Model Outputs Disagree with Internal Representations of Truthfulness?, they conclude that truth probes are sometimes better than prompting primarily because of better calibration.
Commenting here for Felix since he has a new account and it hasn’t been approved by a LessWrong moderator yet:
Good question! The problem differs between attempts. In the image, cases 1 and 2 are different vignettes. The model first attempts case 2 and fails, sees the failure message (“TRY AGAIN with a new scenario:”), and then is given case 1, a completely different situation it hasn’t seen before (with different medications).
Cool work!
I was thinking a bit and I think that nondeterministic sampling (temperature > 0*), which is standard for LLM sampling, might complicate the picture a bit. A model instance might think “well almost surely I would choose to cooperate, but maaaybe in a rare instance I would defect.”
E.g. for Wolf’s dilemma with n = 1000, if I’m an LLM and I decide that there’s initially a 99% chance a copy of me will cooperate but a 1% chance it will defect, it’s now suddenly optimal to defect (perhaps the model reasons that it is in this 1%!). This might then cause the LLM to change its 99 − 1 initial estimate (because it thinks other models will reason like it), so I’m not actually sure how the logic goes here, it seems hard to reason about.
As a concrete experiment, I would be curious if models start to defect more if you increase n! It would be extremely cool if there was some threshold n where a model suddenly starts defecting, as possibly that would mean that it was aware of its own probability p of defecting and was waiting for n > 1 / p.
*Did you run this with temperature 0? Note that even with temperature 0, I’m not sure that model sampling is actually deterministic in practice.
Thanks! I think you’re right that this isn’t conclusive evidence; trying on a different setting where self awareness isn’t so similar to the in distribution behavior might help, which I’m planning on looking at next. I do think that you shouldn’t draw much from the absolute magnitude of the effect at a given layer for a given dataset, since the questions in each dataset are totally different (the relative magnitude across layers is a more principled thing to compare, which is why we argued they looked similar).
Good points, thanks! We do try training with the same setup as the paper in the “Investigating Further” section, which still doesn’t work. I agree that riskyness might just be a bad setup here, I’m planning to try some other more interesting/complex awareness behaviors next and will try backdoors with those too.
I really liked @Sam Marks recent post on downstream applications as validation for interp techniques, and I’ve been feeling similarly after the (in my opinion) somewhat disappointing downstream performance of SAEs.
Motivated by this, I’ve written up about 50 weird language model results I found in the literature. I expect some of them to be familiar to most here (e.g. alignment faking, reward hacking) and some to be a bit more obscure (e.g. input space connectivity, fork tokens).
If our current interp techniques can help us understand these phenomenon better, that’s great! Otherwise I hope that seeing where our current techniques fail might help us develop better techniques.
I’m also interested in taking a wide view of what counts as interp. When trying to understand some weird model behavior, if mech interp techniques aren’t as useful as linear probing, or even careful black box experiments, that seems important to know!
Here’s the doc: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yFAawnO9z0DtnRJDhRzDqJRNkCsIK_N3_pr_yCUGouI/edit?gid=0#gid=0
Thanks to @jake_mendel, @Senthooran Rajamanoharan, and @Neel Nanda for the conversations that convinced me to write this up.
I was having trouble reproducing your results on Pythia, and was only able to get 60% variance explained. I may have tracked it down: I think you may be computing FVU incorrectly.
https://gist.github.com/Stefan-Heimersheim/ff1d3b92add92a29602b411b9cd76cec#file-clustering_pythia-py-L309
I think FVU is correctly computed by subtracting the mean from each dimension when computing the denominator. See the SAEBench impl here:
https://github.com/adamkarvonen/SAEBench/blob/5204b4822c66a838d9c9221640308e7c23eda00a/sae_bench/evals/core/main.py#L566When I used your FVU implementation, I got 72% variance explained; this is still less than you, but much closer, so I think this might be causing the improvement over the SAEBench numbers.
In general I think SAEs with low k should be at least as good as k means clustering, and if it’s not I’m a little bit suspicious (when I tried this first on GPT-2 it seemed that a TopK SAE trained with k = 4 did about as well as k means clustering with the nonlinear argmax encoder).
Here’s my clustering code: https://github.com/JoshEngels/CheckClustering/blob/main/clustering.py
I just tried to replicate this on GPT-2 with expansion factor 4 (so total number of centroids = 768 * 4). I get that clustering recovers ~87% fraction of variance explained, while a k = 32 SAE gets more like 95% variance explained. I did the nonlinear version of finding nearest neighbors when using k means to give k means the biggest advantage possible, and did k-means clustering on points using the FAISS clustering library.
Definitely take this with a grain of salt, I’m going to look through my code and see if I can reproduce your results on pythia too, and if so try on a larger model to. Code: https://github.com/JoshEngels/CheckClustering/tree/main
What do you mean you’re encoding/decoding like normal but using the k means vectors? Shouldn’t the SAE training process for a top k SAE with k = 1 find these vectors then?
In general I’m a bit skeptical that clustering will work as well on larger models, my impression is that most small models have pretty token level features which might be pretty clusterable with k=1, but for larger models many activations may belong to multiple “clusters”, which you need dictionary learning for.
Another type might be capability elicitation, e.g. try to train a model organism that has a dangerous capability to see if it’s even possible / how hard it is to train a current model to have that trait.