This machine resists Moloch
Jarred Filmer
Karma: 753
Your description is beautiful in the sense that you use the word :) thank you for sharing
“pain and pain receptor spread across and through animal bodies basically is like a currency for the evolutionary perspective… so species can pay for survival with more pain(receptors)”
I found this interesting to mull on, an interesting property of pleasure and pain is acting as a universal measure of value, making trade-offs easier
I love “divine carrot” as a term! I think a lot about what it would mean to totally replace stick as motivation, like societies getting off of “burning coal indoors for warmth” maybe humans can “get off burning suffering for motivation”
Ha, maybe! Seems like while we’re here though we might as well be working out way down the list of “ideas that might change everything”. People report trying a lot of things and then hitting on something that works (like https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/fFY2HeC9i2Tx8FEnK/my-resentful-story-of-becoming-a-medical-miracle)
Ha, thank you! It slipped my mind, I’ve just added it :)
Thank you for writing this, I found it really valuable!
Noted, thank you for the feedback
Amazing work, this is really important meta problem
From memory the first part was something Richard Bartlett tweeted, the second was my addendum 😄.
Glad you liked them 😊
I’m tipsy and on a train, so I shall help you
sit down at a computer
open a blank documentcall to mind your beloved
bring into your heart the way they make you feeland then just type a stream of conciousness
tell the bouncer of your mind to take a break
and just type words, they don’t have to make any sense at all
and just keep goingif you follow that vein down, you’ll strike on high-minded sentiments worth sharing at a wedding
Expertps from things I’ve squiriled away under “marriage and relationships” that might be relevant to others
“loving someone is creating a context for their growth, fostering a deep well of reciprocal good will”
“Relationship advice from my wise nonna. Deeply in love with husband for 60 years. After he came back from the war he was suffering from PTSD, he needed a lot of support. But she knew that they still had shared values and dreams, and she clung on to that, and nursed him back to health. This shows we can connect with people at a deeper level, not just the surface behaviour.
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/PySEyxTKh5hzDeK9y/my-marriage-vows
“I swear
Whatever aid you ask of me, I shall render it
Whoever you ask me to be, I shall endeavour to become”“this seems very new to you
but seeing someone you like and building a life with them is as old as the seasons changing
humans arn’t as good at it as we used to be, because we need each other less
but this hides the fact that we still desperately need other people, people who will be close with us
your branches have intertwined, and if you’re brave and determined they will grow
you will grow so tall, and so vast, and the branches of your love will hold so much
they will hold your long lives, they will hold the lives of your children the lives of your friends”
Links I’ve been collecting for when I get around to trying to ansewr this question for myself:
* “MDMA Solo” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25974701* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19997984
* https://sashachapin.substack.com/p/how-i-attained-persistent-self-love
* https://twitter.com/m_ashcroft/status/1486398240643760133
* https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZbgCx2ntD5eu8Cno9/how-to-be-happy
* https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/well-being
* that alicorn luminosity sequence
* https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/j3QDAqSQFi4BpHxQK/a-guide-for-productivity-2
* https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/iYR9hKzTKGhZwTPWK/meaningful-rest
* https://alexvermeer.com/life-hacking/
https://qualiacomputing.com/2021/04/04/* buddhist-annealing-wireheading-done-right-with-the-seven-factors-of-awakening/
* https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/i2Q3DTsQq9THhFEgR/introducing-effective-self-help
I’ve been thinking about this notion a great deal thanks so much for posting! I also have an intuition towards that which is good being non-arbitrary, akin to pi or gravity.
This gives me hope on how AGI might play out, but I’m aware we can’t be certain this is the case until we have a proven theory of value a la the symetry theory of valence, and maybe even then we couldn’t be sure any sufficiently capable mind would be exposed to the same dynamics humans are.
re the first question I assumed it was asking “what are you symathetic to” rather than “what is”, more than any particular view I’m dubious of anyone who’s feels 100% confident in their view on the nature of conciousness
Thank you, I thought so too 😊
And yeah, case clinics have given me a lot of value. If something like it is emerging naturally amoung your friends, then they sound like great friends!
If you do try to expressly instantiate a case clinic with the steps I’d be curious to hear how it goes. I’ve been surprised at the effect setting an explicit format can have on how it feels to be in a group. Something about creating common knowledge on where we’re all supposed to be directing our attention (and with what intention), can be really powerful. Thinking about it now I suppose this is how DnD works 😄
ha don’t worry it basically is 😄, it’s just that (for me at least) the notion I could put effort into making strong 1-1 connections with people and forming intimate small groups online wasn’t really something that occurred to me to do before I started reading about microsolidarity.
May also be worth noting that the microsolidarity framework is about a bunch of other stuff beyond just crews and case clinics, notably dynamics that come into play once you try to take a bunch of crews and form a larger group of ~150 or so people out of them.
I agree with the content of your comment but the framing gives me a sense of bad faith, and makes me uncomfortable.
If I put a lot of time into a post-mortem detailing how an 8 year project I put a lot into went wrong, and then the top comment was someone summing up what I’d done in an uncharitable paragraph saying things like “making stuff up” and “no shit sherlock” I’d feel like I’d tried to do a good thing for the discourse at large and was defected against.
To echo others, thank you for putting your time and effort into this, I found it coherent and valuable. As an international rat/EA who’s only context for Leverage was Zoe’s post, this fleshed out my understanding of what you were trying to do in a helpful way and gave me a lot to chew on regarding my own thoughts on ideological communities.
Regarding: “Why do people seem to hate us?”
After reading Zoe’s post I had a very negative view of Leverage and Geoff, after some introspection here is my best guess as to why.
Growing up religious, I’m very aware that my individuality can be radically subordinated by:
Potent ideas
Potent community
And when those two are mixed in the form of ideological communities it’s powerful and it’s intoxicating. And like most intoxicating and powerful things, there is a great potential for harm. Thus whenever I find myself moving in a group of people high on ideas and connection, there’s a voice in the back of my mind constantly asking.
Is this a cult yet?
Is this a cult yet?
Is this a cult yet?This is a voice I know for a fact is speaking in the back of several EAs and rationalists I know personally. And I’d be shocked if anyone who’s had a brush with the failure modes of ideological community and finds themsevles in a reading group for The Precipice isn’t thinking that to themselves.
So when I read of an insular group in the memeplex I call home getting high on ideas and each-other, and then started talking about “magic” and “demons” my strong reaction was of fear. It’s happening, kill it with fire before it spreads and ruins everything.
I’m currently agnostic on whether leveraging the power of potent community and ideas is something that can be channeled safely, but I don’t blame you guys for trying; and I recognise that my initial reactions to the topic of Leverage and Geoff Anders were mixed up in with a non-trivial amount of counter productive fear.
It gave me an emotional intuition for what more progress along the “distance from violence” scale might look like. If we don’t even have to pull the trigger anymore and can be assured no unintended casualties, maybe it’s more pressure towards the equilibrium of the state relying on violence to govern, and then to suppress the dissent that violence generates with more violence.
I see two independent ideas in this post
Insidious Inception
People communicate thoughts into each others minds
This can be direct *”I do not want to date you”*
Or indirect *”Sorry I’m too busy this week” with no effort to find a different time*
Saying A to indirectly communicate B can:
Obscure an intention that would be obvious were B said directly
Make it harder to refute B, because the idea that A → B needs to first be established
Delicately communicate B without indirectly implying something that would have been implied had you said it directly
Core thoughts
You have ideas that are small and do not effect your base perception of reality, we call this trivia/facts/knowledge.
You have other ideas that are big, and construct your reality in the way that’s hard to appreciate without medication/psychedelics/hippie workshops. We call this worldview/identity/schemas.
Mixed to form a very third idea:
The norms of healthy communication can be especially abused by someone doing this “insidious inception” to add or alter someones “core thoughts”. If someone is doing this to you (deliberately or otherwise), using the norms of healthy communication you use normally to get people to stop doing things you don’t like may not work, and instead make you vulnerable.
Really liked this. Thanks for the write up.