She doesn’t want to permanently destroy his life because her definition of rape is focused on consent violations, not on ‘vicious crime that must be punished severely’.
I’ve come to believe that she actually doesn’t see rape or sexual assault as automatically a serious crime deserving of serious punishment, but that makes communicating with people whose English got wired up differently in childhood difficult on both sides.
This might be a good invitation to examine the “wiring” we’ve received about sexual violence and how it may both support and/or limit our ability to engage with these issues. Perhaps what you are picking up on is that my views hold more complexity and nuance than what you’ve attempted to reduce them to here—and yet I think you are picking up on and highlighting some important things.
I do think the violation of sexual consent( I.e sexual assault or rape) is a serious crime and an act of violence that causes real harm. It’s worth noting that rape victims seldom receive justice through the courts and that a trial process can often be retraumatizing. Each person must make their own choice about whether they want to pursue that path as a means to retribution and if the cost, risk, and time is worth it to them.
I also do not think that all acts of sexual violence are created equal. For example, my experience was not the same thing as having my life threatened with a weapon as an act of sexual coercion—and those experiences should probably not be evaluated or penalized in the same way. Still, a serious violation of my agency occurred and the resulting psychological, relational, and emotional harm and suffering as a result of the physical violation AND the ways in which I was treated after the assault has been significant.
The language used to speak about sexual violence is limited. It might be helpful if our language and definitions of sexual violence were more nuanced, included more categories, and were more specific about the types of experiences people are having—but they are not. The issue of what language to use and how to articulate an experience is frequently a challenge for many people when writing about various forms of sexual violence.
I’m not sure that “a serious crime that must be punished severely” or “permanently destroying his life” is an approach that many people want to apply to any person they’ve loved—and you are right in recognizing that that is not what I want for the person who assaulted me. I think Alex’s actions have also caused himself pain and suffering—which he alludes to in his description of overwhelming shame and confusion. What I do think would probably be an ideal response is financial restitution for the cost of recovery and lost wages over the past year and a half, acknowledgment of the harm done by himself and the organization—especially to other members of the MA’s community, some kind of restorative process that involves both of us, and a commitment to continued education focused on sexual violence and consent and rehabilitative/counseling services regarding these issues and whatever underlying attitudes or traumas maybe driving Alex’s harmful patterns of behavior for a certain period of time. This seems unlikely to occur while Alex remains a part of the MA—and it is clear that according to his own account Soryu, his teacher whom has motive to have these claims denied, seems to be actively supporting Alex’s denial of responsibility. I also think the organization needs to engage in a similar process of making repairs for the harm they’ve caused, in developing accountability—especially regarding the extensive harm Soryu has caused over the past ten years, and in outside training for their leaders and teachers regarding how to appropriately handle issues of misconduct if/when they arise. At this point in time, both those outcomes seem very unlikely—and I am still figuring out what to do from here.
It’s also worth noting that I think a punitive model of justice such as exists in our country is generally not a helpful response to most crimes—so it follows that I don’t necessarily know if that model is effective at addressing the core issues that contribute toward sexual violence and/or repairing the harm done to victims. That approach may be an appropriate response to some cases, but it also makes it harder for both victims and perpetrators to talk about and acknowledge wrongdoing, engage in rehabilitation, education, restorative processes, and/or make amends. I do not claim to be an expert of such matters—but am noting that our current approach to sexual violence and legal system has been highly ineffective.
Use of the phrase “sexual assault” in the title, and describing very clearly an uninvited, unexpected, and nonconsentual penetrative sex act is indicative to me that this is impactful to you, that you feel attacked, and that your attacker committed a crime.
Whether that’s “a serious crime that must be punished severely” is a much harder question. Or really, two questions. It sounds like a serious crime to me. Whether it must be punished and how is a question of your model of his responsibility, your need for closure and/or retribution, and your ideas about signalling to the world just how acceptable or not this action was.
I’d advise first to take care of yourself—whatever you need to minimize long-term harm on your life. For some, that’s prosecution, for some, that’s just moving away and living well. For very few, I contend, it is talking about it on message boards while staying involved in the same communities where you’re either reminded of it all the time or feel like it’s being ignored or suppressed.
The effect on him (“destroy his life”) DOES affect you—you care about him as an individual human, not just as a criminal. You absolutely should take that into account. But also the effect on the world—his assault is NOT incredibly rare. It happens somwhat often in intense quasi-religious relationships, and it doesn’t appear from outside that there have been significant consequences to him. “rape culture” is the default when such harms are not normally punished. That sucks, and it’s not your responsibility to change it, but it is a factor you should consider.
I led my comment with an acknowledgement that my comments say more about me than about you. I repeat that, and I hope none of this has increased your pain. Your first duty is always to yourself, and whatever you think best is probably right.
First of all, I want to express appreciation for your acknowledgment of how heartbreaking this situation has been and the suffering involved. This comment is a response to both of your comments.
As you’ve highlighted in your comments are reflective of your views—and not of my own. In some ways, it feels like you are putting a lot on me about what to do and what my views of sexual assault and punishment do or do not mean. I don’t think that’s intended. I sense that your goal here is to be reflective and helpful but it’s worth noting that my post was not a request for advice. There is also probably a way to address the points you are making that expresses your thoughts without making statements about what my experience is and is not which hits a nerve. Overall I didn’t experience your comments as distressing or the like, I’m just wanting to note those things. These are, of course, difficult conversations to navigate for anyone for obvious reasons as are many topics that are sensitive and emotionally charged.
And yes it’s obvious from my post that I do feel a crime has been committed by both my former partner and the organization (as you summarized.) It is unfortunate that neither he nor the organization has demonstrated a willingness to be accountable—but also not surprising cause “cults gonna cult.” I am not sure that I can change that and I definitely cannot change them if they aren’t interested in changing. I certainly cannot change all of “rape culture” though it would be nice if I could.
I do not think that what has happened is acceptable whatever else others may feel my statements and feelings reflect. I am also NOT just now realizing how bad or harmful it was as you’ve stated in your earlier comment. I’ve always known what I experienced was a big deal. There probably are some ways I minimized his responsibility and rationalized the abuse that was not healthy in the past in order to maintain the connection and in order to protect myself from feeling the full weight and devastation of the experience all at once. Processing that event and the accompanying complex dynamics and emotions has not happened all at once but in pieces over time with significant support. Getting to a place where one can both articulate a complex and traumatic experience let alone be emotionally stable enough and well enough to risk sharing publicly takes time—but that doesn’t mean I wasn’t aware of the seriousness of the incident back then. It’s likely that there are people who could not see what was happening to me internally or who are making many different assumptions about me and my experience based on the fact that I had a relationship with Alex after this incident. The assumptions others make are another thing I don’t have control over. I basically could use/have had to grow another layer of skin the past six months.
If I understand your comment correctly you put forward that the lack of accountability and punishment is a contributor to “rape culture”. I agree with that. You mention considering the impact on the world that “a lack of accountability” would have and I just want to say that I’ve probably more deeply considered this than most people have. I am not advocating for a lack of accountability—but I do care about my ex-partner as a human being.
In an ideal world, if either Alex or the MA were willing ( and I don’t get the sense that they are) my preference in this specific situation would be for accountability and healing to happen through financial compensation for harm, restoratives processes, organizational changes, education focused on addressing misconduct, the removal of the “spiritual teacher” from any position of power in the organization due to his ongoing history of negligence and abuse which many people have attempted to address for many years, and the person(s) who harmed me seeking professional rehabilitative and therapeutic support outside the organization. The behaviors described above and others I experienced with my ex-partner were abusive and/or were unhealthy and it was unhealthy for me to have a relationship with him in spite of these violations and the red flags I was seeing. In many ways Alex is also a beautiful person whom at times greatly inspired me, but like many people who perpetuate unhealthy patterns including abusive behaviors he has his own history of trauma and abuse he has experienced. He continues to participate those addictive patterns and unhealthy relationships through his involvement with the MA while believing himself to be pursuing liberation. I hope at some point he will pursue real therapuetic intervention and support instead of simply trying to meditate his problems away. I do believe there is a path to restoration and healing for my ex-partner and for those who were involved in covering it up if they choose to engage with accountability, restoration, and healing. I cannot make him or anyone else walk that path—and at this point it’s time for me heal from that relationship (which was a real mindfuck) and to examine what factors/behaviors in my own life contributed to my engagement in a dynamic that was clearly unhealthy for me after abuse had occurred.
When I think of “severe punishment” I think of prison time—and persons who’ve committed crimes being placed in often hostile and violent environments. Wanting a loved one to be accountable and to address harmful and abusive acts or patterns of behavior is very different from wanting maximum retribution or inflicting extreme suffering on another which I think rarely leads to deep inner change and healing for individuals, between people, and for communities. I think there is probably not a one size fits all solution for crime- and that there are experts in this field who have more insight than I do about how to address the systemic nature of these issues.
As it currently stands very few legal cases pressing for rape result in convictions—and the consequences and impacts of sexual assault undoubtedly fall disproportionality to victims. I am however not opposed to considering legal action—but I do haft to consider the costs, benefits/drawbacks, and impact that a trial might have on myself/others just as I consider the impact on myself and on other people who will be impacted when I write or engage in conversations in a public forum.
I am not looking to receive a sense of closure from message boards—and there are many ways that I’m actively engaged and supported in my recovery that go beyond this space. Trust me when I say I am taking care of myself as well as I know how to do. Seeking closure is not my purpose here—and while you may think it is advisable to simply disengage (and there may be a time and place for that) at my own discretion I have my reasons for continuing to write about this experience.
There is a lot of context in this situation that is not readily apparent to someone reading these posts and which when it comes to writing and reading “ain’t nobody got time for that”. Complex context and emotions make it more challenging for me to decide what to share and not share—and likely make it difficult for readers to fully understand the various emotions, motivations, and the perspective(s) that I do share.
I can tell you what is a primary motivator for me. In this situation, too many other people have been harmed and will be harmed in this particular environment (and if we are talking about sexual assault and rape in general that extends far beyond this environment)- and I have had multiple conversations with past residents who felt they “should have done more” or whom even tried to address various issues with the organization to prevent harm to others without success. Few people are willing to share their own stories though for a multitude of reasons—and that choice is up to them and it’s understandable why some people choose not to. That along with a stubborn determination to not be silenced, or to allow those who’ve mistreated me to benefit from my “distancing myself and moving on”. I do think that this experience has shown me the deep level of complicity many of us have had through our silence—and that is a pattern I wish to break from. I do not wish to be complicit in my own abuse or the abuse of others through my silence. However, “not unique” my experience it feels important to me to speak about it until I’m finished. I’m sure the man who assaulted me and the MA would LOVE for me to simply go away, disengage from these communities, and not speak about my experience because then they could simply deny it, let it blow over, and carry on with business as usual. As long as I am alive and they remain unaccountable I do not intend on making that easy. Only I can decide when, how, and if that’s what I want to do and what best serves me as you’ve already noted above.
She doesn’t want to permanently destroy his life because her definition of rape is focused on consent violations, not on ‘vicious crime that must be punished severely’.
I’ve come to believe that she actually doesn’t see rape or sexual assault as automatically a serious crime deserving of serious punishment, but that makes communicating with people whose English got wired up differently in childhood difficult on both sides.
This might be a good invitation to examine the “wiring” we’ve received about sexual violence and how it may both support and/or limit our ability to engage with these issues. Perhaps what you are picking up on is that my views hold more complexity and nuance than what you’ve attempted to reduce them to here—and yet I think you are picking up on and highlighting some important things.
I do think the violation of sexual consent( I.e sexual assault or rape) is a serious crime and an act of violence that causes real harm. It’s worth noting that rape victims seldom receive justice through the courts and that a trial process can often be retraumatizing. Each person must make their own choice about whether they want to pursue that path as a means to retribution and if the cost, risk, and time is worth it to them.
I also do not think that all acts of sexual violence are created equal. For example, my experience was not the same thing as having my life threatened with a weapon as an act of sexual coercion—and those experiences should probably not be evaluated or penalized in the same way. Still, a serious violation of my agency occurred and the resulting psychological, relational, and emotional harm and suffering as a result of the physical violation AND the ways in which I was treated after the assault has been significant.
The language used to speak about sexual violence is limited. It might be helpful if our language and definitions of sexual violence were more nuanced, included more categories, and were more specific about the types of experiences people are having—but they are not. The issue of what language to use and how to articulate an experience is frequently a challenge for many people when writing about various forms of sexual violence.
I’m not sure that “a serious crime that must be punished severely” or “permanently destroying his life” is an approach that many people want to apply to any person they’ve loved—and you are right in recognizing that that is not what I want for the person who assaulted me. I think Alex’s actions have also caused himself pain and suffering—which he alludes to in his description of overwhelming shame and confusion. What I do think would probably be an ideal response is financial restitution for the cost of recovery and lost wages over the past year and a half, acknowledgment of the harm done by himself and the organization—especially to other members of the MA’s community, some kind of restorative process that involves both of us, and a commitment to continued education focused on sexual violence and consent and rehabilitative/counseling services regarding these issues and whatever underlying attitudes or traumas maybe driving Alex’s harmful patterns of behavior for a certain period of time. This seems unlikely to occur while Alex remains a part of the MA—and it is clear that according to his own account Soryu, his teacher whom has motive to have these claims denied, seems to be actively supporting Alex’s denial of responsibility. I also think the organization needs to engage in a similar process of making repairs for the harm they’ve caused, in developing accountability—especially regarding the extensive harm Soryu has caused over the past ten years, and in outside training for their leaders and teachers regarding how to appropriately handle issues of misconduct if/when they arise. At this point in time, both those outcomes seem very unlikely—and I am still figuring out what to do from here.
It’s also worth noting that I think a punitive model of justice such as exists in our country is generally not a helpful response to most crimes—so it follows that I don’t necessarily know if that model is effective at addressing the core issues that contribute toward sexual violence and/or repairing the harm done to victims. That approach may be an appropriate response to some cases, but it also makes it harder for both victims and perpetrators to talk about and acknowledge wrongdoing, engage in rehabilitation, education, restorative processes, and/or make amends. I do not claim to be an expert of such matters—but am noting that our current approach to sexual violence and legal system has been highly ineffective.
Use of the phrase “sexual assault” in the title, and describing very clearly an uninvited, unexpected, and nonconsentual penetrative sex act is indicative to me that this is impactful to you, that you feel attacked, and that your attacker committed a crime.
Whether that’s “a serious crime that must be punished severely” is a much harder question. Or really, two questions. It sounds like a serious crime to me. Whether it must be punished and how is a question of your model of his responsibility, your need for closure and/or retribution, and your ideas about signalling to the world just how acceptable or not this action was.
I’d advise first to take care of yourself—whatever you need to minimize long-term harm on your life. For some, that’s prosecution, for some, that’s just moving away and living well. For very few, I contend, it is talking about it on message boards while staying involved in the same communities where you’re either reminded of it all the time or feel like it’s being ignored or suppressed.
The effect on him (“destroy his life”) DOES affect you—you care about him as an individual human, not just as a criminal. You absolutely should take that into account. But also the effect on the world—his assault is NOT incredibly rare. It happens somwhat often in intense quasi-religious relationships, and it doesn’t appear from outside that there have been significant consequences to him. “rape culture” is the default when such harms are not normally punished. That sucks, and it’s not your responsibility to change it, but it is a factor you should consider.
I led my comment with an acknowledgement that my comments say more about me than about you. I repeat that, and I hope none of this has increased your pain. Your first duty is always to yourself, and whatever you think best is probably right.
First of all, I want to express appreciation for your acknowledgment of how heartbreaking this situation has been and the suffering involved. This comment is a response to both of your comments.
As you’ve highlighted in your comments are reflective of your views—and not of my own. In some ways, it feels like you are putting a lot on me about what to do and what my views of sexual assault and punishment do or do not mean. I don’t think that’s intended. I sense tha
tyour goal here is to be reflective and helpful but it’s worth noting that my post was not a request for advice. There is also probably a way to address the points you are making that expresses your thoughts without making statements about what my experience is and is not which hits a nerve. Overall I didn’t experience your comments as distressing or the like, I’m just wanting to note those things. These are, of course, difficult conversations to navigate for anyone for obvious reasons as are many topics that are sensitive and emotionally charged.And yes it’s obvious from my post that I do feel a crime has been committed by both my former partner and the organization (as you summarized.) It is unfortunate that neither he nor the organization has demonstrated a willingness to be accountable—but also not surprising cause “cults gonna cult.” I am not sure that I can change that and I definitely cannot change them if they aren’t interested in changing. I certainly cannot change all of “rape culture” though it would be nice if I could.
I do not think that what has happened is acceptable whatever else others may feel my statements and feelings reflect. I am also NOT just now realizing how bad or harmful it was as you’ve stated in your earlier comment. I’ve always known what I experienced was a big deal. There probably are some ways I minimized his responsibility and rationalized the abuse that was not healthy in the past in order to maintain the connection and in order to protect myself from feeling the full weight and devastation of the experience all at once. Processing that event and the accompanying complex dynamics and emotions has not happened all at once but in pieces over time with significant support. Getting to a place where one can both articulate a complex and traumatic experience let alone be emotionally stable enough and well enough to risk sharing publicly takes time—but that doesn’t mean I wasn’t aware of the seriousness of the incident back then. It’s likely that there are people who could not see what was happening to me internally or who are making many different assumptions about me and my experience based on the fact that I had a relationship with Alex after this incident. The assumptions others make are another thing I don’t have control over. I basically could use/have had to grow another layer of skin the past six months.
If I understand your comment correctly you put forward that the lack of accountability and punishment is a contributor to “rape culture”. I agree with that. You mention considering the impact on the world that “a lack of accountability” would have and I just want to say that I’ve probably more deeply considered this than most people have. I am not advocating for a lack of accountability—but I do care about my ex-partner as a human being.
In an ideal world, if either Alex or the MA were willing ( and I don’t get the sense that they are) my preference in this specific situation would be for accountability and healing to happen through financial compensation for harm, restoratives processes, organizational changes, education focused on addressing misconduct, the removal of the “spiritual teacher” from any position of power in the organization due to his ongoing history of negligence and abuse which many people have attempted to address for many years, and the person(s) who harmed me seeking professional rehabilitative and therapeutic support outside the organization. The behaviors described above and others I experienced with my ex-partner were abusive and/or were unhealthy and it was unhealthy for me to have a relationship with him in spite of these violations and the red flags I was seeing. In many ways Alex is also a beautiful person whom at times greatly inspired me, but like many people who perpetuate unhealthy patterns including abusive behaviors he has his own history of trauma and abuse he has experienced. He continues to participate those addictive patterns and unhealthy relationships through his involvement with the MA while believing himself to be pursuing liberation. I hope at some point he will pursue real therapuetic intervention and support instead of simply trying to meditate his problems away. I do believe there is a path to restoration and healing for my ex-partner and for those who were involved in covering it up if they choose to engage with accountability, restoration, and healing. I cannot make him or anyone else walk that path—and at this point it’s time for me heal from that relationship (which was a real mindfuck) and to examine what factors/behaviors in my own life contributed to my engagement in a dynamic that was clearly unhealthy for me after abuse had occurred.
When I think of “severe punishment” I think of prison time—and persons who’ve committed crimes being placed in often hostile and violent environments. Wanting a loved one to be accountable and to address harmful and abusive acts or patterns of behavior is very different from wanting maximum retribution or inflicting extreme suffering on another which I think rarely leads to deep inner change and healing for individuals, between people, and for communities. I think there is probably not a one size fits all solution for crime- and that there are experts in this field who have more insight than I do about how to address the systemic nature of these issues.
As it currently stands very few legal cases pressing for rape result in convictions—and the consequences and impacts of sexual assault undoubtedly fall disproportionality to victims. I am however not opposed to considering legal action—but I do haft to consider the costs, benefits/drawbacks, and impact that a trial might have on myself/others just as I consider the impact on myself and on other people who will be impacted when I write or engage in conversations in a public forum.
I am not looking to receive a sense of closure from message boards—and there are many ways that I’m actively engaged and supported in my recovery that go beyond this space. Trust me when I say I am taking care of myself as well as I know how to do. Seeking closure is not my purpose here—and while you may think it is advisable to simply disengage (and there may be a time and place for that) at my own discretion I have my reasons for continuing to write about this experience.
There is a lot of context in this situation that is not readily apparent to someone reading these posts and which when it comes to writing and reading “ain’t nobody got time for that”. Complex context and emotions make it more challenging for me to decide what to share and not share—and likely make it difficult for readers to fully understand the various emotions, motivations, and the perspective(s) that I do share.
I can tell you what is a primary motivator for me. In this situation, too many other people have been harmed and will be harmed in this particular environment (and if we are talking about sexual assault and rape in general that extends far beyond this environment)- and I have had multiple conversations with past residents who felt they “should have done more” or whom even tried to address various issues with the organization to prevent harm to others without success. Few people are willing to share their own stories though for a multitude of reasons—and that choice is up to them and it’s understandable why some people choose not to. That along with a stubborn determination to not be silenced, or to allow those who’ve mistreated me to benefit from my “distancing myself and moving on”. I do think that this experience has shown me the deep level of complicity many of us have had through our silence—and that is a pattern I wish to break from. I do not wish to be complicit in my own abuse or the abuse of others through my silence. However, “not unique” my experience it feels important to me to speak about it until I’m finished. I’m sure the man who assaulted me and the MA would LOVE for me to simply go away, disengage from these communities, and not speak about my experience because then they could simply deny it, let it blow over, and carry on with business as usual. As long as I am alive and they remain unaccountable I do not intend on making that easy. Only I can decide when, how, and if that’s what I want to do and what best serves me as you’ve already noted above.
Thanks for reading and engaging. Be well.