Just a data point: I’ve yet to find a Zvi post enjoyable to actually read. When I make myself slog through them, there’s always valuable and interesting concepts, and I’m usually better off for having put forth the effort, and so I upvote and am grateful to Zvi for sharing. But at the same time, the experience is one of trying to make sense of postmodernist slam poetry, or having to consciously sort out which words are jargon and which words are filler and which words just mean what they say, or trying to parse the statements of someone on a half-dose of mushrooms. It always feels like things could’ve been 50% more straightforward while still being aesthetically unique and interesting. It sort of feels like the writing doesn’t try to optimize for limited working memory, maybe?
(All of this really truly just meant for data/feedback; I have no desire to communicate any sort of a demand-for-change and don’t claim that it’s “wrong” in any way except for me personally. It’s just that, in Zvi’s shoes, I would want to know if I were imposing a cost on some readers. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t continue to impose it, if that were the right move.)
Thank you for saying it. Feedback of this type is hard to get and quite valuable, especially given you grok the posts after doing the work. The concept that I might not be accounting for limited working memory is especially new and interesting. I’ve been making an effort to make the jargon/non-jargon distinction clear, but it’s a known issue and I don’t love my solutions so far. There’s tension with brevity; I’m trying hard to keep things short.
I don’t think you’re the only person who has this issue, so I need to fix it. Tsuyoku Naritai. If you’re willing I’d love to hear more (here or elsewhere), the more detailed and concrete the better.
The posts are intuitive; I flow through the text without any jarring.
I think the trick might be (I’m making this up, I don’t know what anyone is actually doing) to not try to analyze each line or try to make sure you’ve understood each sentence. But to let yourself read all the words and then at the end, try to notice if you feel any different about certain concepts, situations, or beliefs.
My guess is people have different default methods of absorbing or processing text. If Zvi exists on one end of a spectrum, it would be nice to have whatever is at the opposite end. But I don’t want to lose the benefits of having, what to me is a very enjoyable and easy reading experience. (But I also want to accommodate other processing types.)
For an example of a similar writing style (which I posit is worse than Zvi’s but has similar properties), the book Finite & Infinite Games by James Carse.
Heh. I’m able to understand Zvi’s posts just fine and find them entertaining, but I think this is largely because I’ve spent a lot of time talking to him in person. I hear them in his voice with a particular cadence which comes with a sense of familiarity and in-jokiness.
It is interesting how different rationalist bloggers compare in terms of writing vs speaking. Scott and Eliezer both feel very different in essay form than in person. Zvi and Anna Salamon pretty much write exactly the same way they talk.
Hmm, I thought that Out to Get You was relatively clear, but I suppose that was because it was describing a concept that was easy to grok, not that it was written any differently. For that article there wasn’t any need for a precisely specified definition, but for more difficult concepts definition by examples has its limits. But even more than that, if someone can write down an explicit definition it is more likely that they will also be able to pick good definitions to illustrate their point.
Featured (nominated by Elizabeth): well-written, interesting, useful concept
Just a data point: I’ve yet to find a Zvi post enjoyable to actually read. When I make myself slog through them, there’s always valuable and interesting concepts, and I’m usually better off for having put forth the effort, and so I upvote and am grateful to Zvi for sharing. But at the same time, the experience is one of trying to make sense of postmodernist slam poetry, or having to consciously sort out which words are jargon and which words are filler and which words just mean what they say, or trying to parse the statements of someone on a half-dose of mushrooms. It always feels like things could’ve been 50% more straightforward while still being aesthetically unique and interesting. It sort of feels like the writing doesn’t try to optimize for limited working memory, maybe?
(All of this really truly just meant for data/feedback; I have no desire to communicate any sort of a demand-for-change and don’t claim that it’s “wrong” in any way except for me personally. It’s just that, in Zvi’s shoes, I would want to know if I were imposing a cost on some readers. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t continue to impose it, if that were the right move.)
Thank you for saying it. Feedback of this type is hard to get and quite valuable, especially given you grok the posts after doing the work. The concept that I might not be accounting for limited working memory is especially new and interesting. I’ve been making an effort to make the jargon/non-jargon distinction clear, but it’s a known issue and I don’t love my solutions so far. There’s tension with brevity; I’m trying hard to keep things short.
I don’t think you’re the only person who has this issue, so I need to fix it. Tsuyoku Naritai. If you’re willing I’d love to hear more (here or elsewhere), the more detailed and concrete the better.
I have nearly the opposite experience, FWIW.
The posts are intuitive; I flow through the text without any jarring.
I think the trick might be (I’m making this up, I don’t know what anyone is actually doing) to not try to analyze each line or try to make sure you’ve understood each sentence. But to let yourself read all the words and then at the end, try to notice if you feel any different about certain concepts, situations, or beliefs.
My guess is people have different default methods of absorbing or processing text. If Zvi exists on one end of a spectrum, it would be nice to have whatever is at the opposite end. But I don’t want to lose the benefits of having, what to me is a very enjoyable and easy reading experience. (But I also want to accommodate other processing types.)
For an example of a similar writing style (which I posit is worse than Zvi’s but has similar properties), the book Finite & Infinite Games by James Carse.
Heh. I’m able to understand Zvi’s posts just fine and find them entertaining, but I think this is largely because I’ve spent a lot of time talking to him in person. I hear them in his voice with a particular cadence which comes with a sense of familiarity and in-jokiness.
It is interesting how different rationalist bloggers compare in terms of writing vs speaking. Scott and Eliezer both feel very different in essay form than in person. Zvi and Anna Salamon pretty much write exactly the same way they talk.
Hmm, I thought that Out to Get You was relatively clear, but I suppose that was because it was describing a concept that was easy to grok, not that it was written any differently. For that article there wasn’t any need for a precisely specified definition, but for more difficult concepts definition by examples has its limits. But even more than that, if someone can write down an explicit definition it is more likely that they will also be able to pick good definitions to illustrate their point.