CFAR workshops have a money-back guarantee if you’re not satisfied:
And if you conclude the benefits to your happiness and effectiveness don’t recoup the investment, we’ll refund your money up to a year after you attend the workshop.
I read that in the FAQ as well. … Weirdly enough, taking that option would make me just feel guilty. I would have gone there, I would have learned, and then I would have said “well this is nice and all but is not as great as I envisioned—it’s kinda like counting to 10 instead of immediately screaming at people, and that’s not worth all this”—whilst I did get what was offered—lessons, boarding, food, people to talk to… I don’t know how to put it. It feels like I’d be hurting other people just to fix my own mistake.
I went through similar thought processes before attending and decided that it was extremely unlikely that I would ask for my money back even if I didn’t think the workshop had been worth the cost. That made me decide that the offer wasn’t a legitimate one for me to consider as real and I ignored it when making my final considerations of whether to go or not.
I ultimately went and thought it was fully worth it for me. I know 3+ people who follow that pattern who I spoke to shortly after the workshop and 1 who thought that it hadn’t actually been worth it but did not ask for their money back.
Maybe because you think they only write it but don’t think it will be taken by honest people.
Maybe because you think only dishonest (or ) people would actually take that option.
ADDED: Actually that makes me thinking a bit more about attending the workshop. I think if I could define objective criteria about how to measure the effect of the workshop within one year (and that would probably a valuable exercise in itself) and I could agree with them on that measure I might take the option that way.
Have you considered talking to them about the actual reasoning and meaning behind that option? Because it you don’t consider it an actual option it looses it’s value and they might want to improve on that.
Because after I went through what is most likely to be a pretty darn good ran workshop with lots of effort put in by actual real people that I will see in those days and to talk to them and to learn some stuff from them and then to say afterwards “sorry, but I don’t think that what I learned here is THAT valuable”—to their face (and I have seen their faces, so to put it in a email is a lot like saying it to their face) - that just somehow breaks social convention for me.
There is also the possibility that I consider flying to America and spending 4 days there “scary”, and that the monetary price tag is not my actual problem. To fix this, I now imagine the convention was held in Europe.
...
It’s not helping, I’d still have to fly. So it’s not America that is scary. What if it’s in my home country, a long drive (3 hours) away?
...
I can visualize myself looking up further info to see just how long of a trip it is. I can also visualize myself talking to my parents about this. I know the money is something that will be something to talk about my parents. …
If I think about other long trips, I know my parents will encourage me, because it makes me more independant. They’ll help me pack (do you have this, do you have that?).
For the money aspect… they’d have a serious talk with me about it. The ability to refund if it a total sham would help to convince my parents. The fact that it is on a weekend helps reduce the impact as well, it’s not a workweek you’re taking off. Ultimately they would say it is my own money, that I am a responsible adult now, and that I am the one that should decide for myself. I’d be subject to some heavy questioning about WHY I’d want to go. Due to previous trouble with cults in the family, they’d probably ask questions in that direction—especially after looking CFAR up—a workshop to “think better”...?
I could put my foot down and say I wanted to go and they’d let me.
...
I get the feeling I should visit a meetup or some other rationality-themed event with lower entry requirements first. To get to know how those other people react and respond to things. How welcoming they are. Yes, unjust generalizations, but on the other hand, some parts of those people has to think alike (rational-..istic) and thus it is worth some points as evidence. And whether I can learn anything from talking to people like that, or whether it is a massive circlejerk, so to say.
...
Man I could get half of that by hanging around in some skype meetup. Maybe. Sounds like something that’d be worth to try, given the low effort required.
I don’t think my original monetary argument is a false argument—the cost is real—but it’s slightly different. $3900 is a lot of money to spend on something that you have no clue of what it’d be like. It looks the same, but basically you can say “hey, this is a car, it goes really fast” and talk to a lot of people who have driven in cars but if you want to buy a car then maybe you should try driving a car first. (This analogy fails horribly due to the fact that you tend to get a drivers license before buying a car. Which involves a lot of driving. So you’d definitely know what a car is.)
This is a great serious commentary of your though processes regarding going to CFAR or not. Maybe you might consider forwarding it to CFAR. It could help them.
If somebody downvotes an entire chain of content you’ve posted, you’re probably expressing an idea they disagree with, rather than making a mistake. (Not always true, but usually.)
CFAR workshops have a money-back guarantee if you’re not satisfied:
(from their workshops page)
I read that in the FAQ as well. … Weirdly enough, taking that option would make me just feel guilty. I would have gone there, I would have learned, and then I would have said “well this is nice and all but is not as great as I envisioned—it’s kinda like counting to 10 instead of immediately screaming at people, and that’s not worth all this”—whilst I did get what was offered—lessons, boarding, food, people to talk to… I don’t know how to put it. It feels like I’d be hurting other people just to fix my own mistake.
I went through similar thought processes before attending and decided that it was extremely unlikely that I would ask for my money back even if I didn’t think the workshop had been worth the cost. That made me decide that the offer wasn’t a legitimate one for me to consider as real and I ignored it when making my final considerations of whether to go or not.
I ultimately went and thought it was fully worth it for me. I know 3+ people who follow that pattern who I spoke to shortly after the workshop and 1 who thought that it hadn’t actually been worth it but did not ask for their money back.
Why would you feel guilty?
Maybe because you think they only write it but don’t think it will be taken by honest people.
Maybe because you think only dishonest (or ) people would actually take that option.
ADDED: Actually that makes me thinking a bit more about attending the workshop. I think if I could define objective criteria about how to measure the effect of the workshop within one year (and that would probably a valuable exercise in itself) and I could agree with them on that measure I might take the option that way. Have you considered talking to them about the actual reasoning and meaning behind that option? Because it you don’t consider it an actual option it looses it’s value and they might want to improve on that.
Because after I went through what is most likely to be a pretty darn good ran workshop with lots of effort put in by actual real people that I will see in those days and to talk to them and to learn some stuff from them and then to say afterwards “sorry, but I don’t think that what I learned here is THAT valuable”—to their face (and I have seen their faces, so to put it in a email is a lot like saying it to their face) - that just somehow breaks social convention for me.
There is also the possibility that I consider flying to America and spending 4 days there “scary”, and that the monetary price tag is not my actual problem. To fix this, I now imagine the convention was held in Europe.
...
It’s not helping, I’d still have to fly. So it’s not America that is scary. What if it’s in my home country, a long drive (3 hours) away?
...
I can visualize myself looking up further info to see just how long of a trip it is. I can also visualize myself talking to my parents about this. I know the money is something that will be something to talk about my parents. …
If I think about other long trips, I know my parents will encourage me, because it makes me more independant. They’ll help me pack (do you have this, do you have that?).
For the money aspect… they’d have a serious talk with me about it. The ability to refund if it a total sham would help to convince my parents. The fact that it is on a weekend helps reduce the impact as well, it’s not a workweek you’re taking off. Ultimately they would say it is my own money, that I am a responsible adult now, and that I am the one that should decide for myself. I’d be subject to some heavy questioning about WHY I’d want to go. Due to previous trouble with cults in the family, they’d probably ask questions in that direction—especially after looking CFAR up—a workshop to “think better”...?
I could put my foot down and say I wanted to go and they’d let me.
...
I get the feeling I should visit a meetup or some other rationality-themed event with lower entry requirements first. To get to know how those other people react and respond to things. How welcoming they are. Yes, unjust generalizations, but on the other hand, some parts of those people has to think alike (rational-..istic) and thus it is worth some points as evidence. And whether I can learn anything from talking to people like that, or whether it is a massive circlejerk, so to say.
...
Man I could get half of that by hanging around in some skype meetup. Maybe. Sounds like something that’d be worth to try, given the low effort required.
I don’t think my original monetary argument is a false argument—the cost is real—but it’s slightly different. $3900 is a lot of money to spend on something that you have no clue of what it’d be like. It looks the same, but basically you can say “hey, this is a car, it goes really fast” and talk to a lot of people who have driven in cars but if you want to buy a car then maybe you should try driving a car first. (This analogy fails horribly due to the fact that you tend to get a drivers license before buying a car. Which involves a lot of driving. So you’d definitely know what a car is.)
This is a great serious commentary of your though processes regarding going to CFAR or not. Maybe you might consider forwarding it to CFAR. It could help them.
The European LW community weekend would likely be a good choice: http://lesswrong.com/lw/l4s/european_community_weekend_2015/ With 150€ it’s cheap and it’s in Berlin and the transportation cost from the Netherlands is also reasonable.
Got −1 on each post in this chain—downvoter, mind providing feedback? If I’m making some mistake here, I’d like to know.
If somebody downvotes an entire chain of content you’ve posted, you’re probably expressing an idea they disagree with, rather than making a mistake. (Not always true, but usually.)