What is the best way to start a disscussion, conversation or debate about a particular topic on LessWrong? If I have an idea, but I expect people disagree with me and will identify it as mistaken (whether it is or not) , I can’t simply post about it because it will probably be buried unless it is evaluated, by people who disagree with it, as high quality, which is extremely difficult to achieve.
How can I induce people/users to argue against my position? This seems like one of the most effective ways to understand things, but it is relatively rare on this website.
I think maybe don’t go in with that goal. If you have an idea that you want to understand better yourself, and to update your own beliefs about whether and where it fits in an overall consistent worldview, then introducing it in a short form may be a good way to summarize and get initial reactions.
If you’re trying to persuade or convince people to adopt it via “winning” a debate, this isn’t the right forum.
[edited to clarify. apologies for oversimplifying. ]
Right. If your goal is to generate discussion for its own sake, it’s less likely to be welcomed. You need a reason for wanting the discussion, and that will determine how and whether to go about it here.. If your goal is to get some help in your understanding of the world and finding whether and how this idea fits into current knowledge and models, then shortform is a good start, and based on engagement (or not), you can expand to a longer post highlighting how it differs from current models and when it’s helpful.
in summary: this is not a place to proselytize or promulgate ideas. It’s a place to cooperatively explore what is true and how we know it. There are LOTS of exceptions and subtlety in specific topics that are already in the Overton window around here, and I wish there were fewer, but for new/unpopular ideas, start with curiosity and learning for yourself, not with pushing or convincing others.
Edit: also, if it’s unpopular/criticized due to complexity of long trains of inference, or large inferential distance from the more popular ideas/models, it’s a VERY good tactic to break it down into smaller pieces, which you can discuss independently. This is not “write more, in a series that can’t be understood until complete”, it’s more “figure out the cruxes and individual atoms of disagreement/unpopularity, and resolve them in isolation”.
sorry for being a bit combative and terse. Edited to be clearer, and perhaps gentler. Mostly “generate discussion” is not a clear reason—what do you want from the discussion?
There are several ways to bring up a topic. You can make a post, you can make a question-post, you can post something on your shortform, you can post something in an open thread.
If there is some detailed opinion about a topic that is a core Less Wrong interest, I’d say make a post. If you don’t have much of an opinion but just want such a topic discussed, maybe you can make it into a question-post.
If the topic is one that seems atypical or off-topic for Less Wrong, but you really want to bring it up anyway, you could post about it on your shortform or on the open thread.
The gist of my advice is that for each thing you want to discuss or debate, identify which kind of post is the best place to introduce it, and then just make the post. And from there, it’s out of your control. People will take an interest or they won’t.
I think generate good quality posts about things that are unlikely to be disagreed with to begin with, or else frame it in such a “LessWrong-style” that people see that it’s clear you’re really trying to be rationalist. It may be necessary to overdo that style if you expect it to be disagreed with in order to elicit more upvotes. Present counterarguments, frame it as a story, make it more interesting than just “I think X which everyone here disagrees with, tell me why I’m wrong.”
Beyond people burying a post like that with downvotes because they disagree (which may happen, hard to say for sure), it’s also just not that great of a post, in my opinion.
Would you be able to link me to an example?
Ah okay I have just looked at your profile. Perhaps you are thinking of this post: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/SHryHTDXuoLuykgcu?commentId=cgT4ipPPQ6HcG6H8p. I just read it and unfortunately I do not think it was downvoted because of disagreements with LessWrong. I’m not much of a downvotey kinda guy myself, but I think it’s pretty reasonable to downvote this. If you want my honest feedback:
The metaphor seems kind of tortured to me.
I don’t find the analogy very insightful or revealing.
There are a decent number of typos.
The paragraphs and sentences are too long.
EDIT: To be more charitable, FWIW I do understand the impulse when something you really liked gets downvoted to criticize the readers and say that they just must not be smart enough to understand it. I have done this too, see here: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/ZRToRRSirgwNeLLuL/goedel-s-ontological-proof#gruZ5HzqnxneaKgTZ. But it is an impulse that as a writer one should try to fight against, as criticism (even self-criticism, if necessary) is the only way to improve.
I am sorry, I would like to engage on giving you detailed feedback but I am not really able to do that, because I have other things I need to do with my time. I hope that is understandable.
More generally, this is kind of “rules of engagement” you agree to when you put something out there. I’m not denigrating you by providing this criticism, in fact it is meant in a positive spirit (I promise <3). But I’m not able to provide detailed notes like a lecturer on every post that I don’t like, and no-one else on LessWrong is obligated to do so either, right? They engaged with it enough to either up-or-downvote it, and that’s something. But a karma system is designed to separate posts people think are good from posts people don’t think are good.
If you’re asking me, that post is not super good. A different reader, a different audience, may disagree. I think you show promising signs of someone who could be a good writer. I don’t want to discourage you! This sort of analogical thinking, seeing X in Y, it’s all great.
But for someone to want to read it you must also work on the craft of showing me why I should care. Showing that you respect me enough as a reader to spare me from typos, to explain why an analogy is useful (in a way that I will find satisfying), to make your sentences enjoyable to read. I know I can work on that, we all can. :)
https://www.lesswrong.com/w/arguments-as-soldiers I think you should consider what would happen to this website if it functioned the way you desire, without judgment on quality of writing.
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I mean it seems like the person who posted that managed to have interesting back-and-forths with people in the comments?
I agree there are some absolutely terrible commenters on LessWrong, and to be honest, I think they should be tolerated less than they currently are. But this post did have interesting debate, right? People just thought it was wrong.