All except 7 and 10 are fine ways to make a point, you don’t need to puff them up through a straw. I think people should be ok with sharing sentence-length or comment-length ideas without expanding them into post-length (or book-length, ugh, there are so many books that could have been comments or posts).
7 falls to Betteridge’s law. You should’ve known when you wrote that title :-) Anyway I live in Switzerland, it has very many good aspects but frontier-like freedom isn’t one of them, neither in law nor in practice nor in vibes.
10 sounds like you actually have some cool info to share, so go ahead and share it :-)
Well, one thing I would like to figure out in the process of writing many of these is whether they are true!
Should we actually try to prosecute subtle manipulation more harshly than over lying? How would you do that?
What is the actual welfare burden of fire codes? How important are fire codes for fire safety? Is there any chance this could possibly pencil?
This one seems fine as a stub, though it would be nice to actually document the specific cases I remember and as such allow more detailed updating
This one is maybe actually fine as a stub, but I do also think there is a lot more to say
But can we actually have courts though?
More pictures and examples!
Your comment has not made me less interested in studying Switzerland more
The big question for this one is “so what, are you saying we should go around and constantly accuse each other of bad faith? What does it mean for a group of people to notice and be aware of the fact they are having a bad faith conversation? Should you maybe just pretend that every conversation is good faith anyways?”
I need something canonical to link to here. Ideally with lots and lots of examples.
My go-to example is cheese. I still have a vivid memory of going to a US supermarket and buying a packet of Kraft… something, then coming back to my hotel room, taking a bite of the thing and becoming horrified. In Switzerland every cheese-like thing in the supermarket is actually cheese.
Add to that universal compulsory health insurance, public transport everywhere, laws making it difficult to fire or evict a person, minimum capital of 20K CHF to start an LLC, and you’ll see clearly whether Switzerland is libertarian or not.
(In case it’s not clear, I think Switzerland’s non-libertarian approach is a very good thing overall. With the exception of policies that make it harder to build more housing, which are as bad as everywhere else.)
Should you maybe just pretend that every conversation is good faith anyways?
Some communities have “assume good faith” as a rule/guideline and that seems to often work. I think if someone is defensive/triggered, responding in kind tends to make the person dig in more. If you instead assume the person is engaging in good faith, that may draw them into a mode of good faith engagement even if that wasn’t their original posture.
Some communities have “assume good faith” as a rule/guideline and that seems to often work.
What happens if someone actually does not act in good faith?
I think that on Wikipedia you win this game by being the first one who starts explicitly reminding your opponent of the need to assume good faith. (It is important to only remind them. Never to accuse of anything, because an accusation would itself be a violation of assuming good faith.) If you then keep reminding them of the need to assume good faith in every reply, at some moment your opponent will probably snap and get banned. (The beauty of this strategy is that pointing it out would be a huge violation of assuming good faith. Even if it is already obvious to most smart people what’s happening.)
I’m not sure, but at least a few of those communities are pretty actively moderated, so a moderator might step in if someone seemed to be abusing the rule.
I think you want a rule or strong informal standard that participants try to engage in good faith if you’re asking people to assume it. I think LW has that standard and that’s why it’s far better than any other public forum I know of.
All except 7 and 10 are fine ways to make a point, you don’t need to puff them up through a straw. I think people should be ok with sharing sentence-length or comment-length ideas without expanding them into post-length (or book-length, ugh, there are so many books that could have been comments or posts).
7 falls to Betteridge’s law. You should’ve known when you wrote that title :-) Anyway I live in Switzerland, it has very many good aspects but frontier-like freedom isn’t one of them, neither in law nor in practice nor in vibes.
10 sounds like you actually have some cool info to share, so go ahead and share it :-)
Well, one thing I would like to figure out in the process of writing many of these is whether they are true!
Should we actually try to prosecute subtle manipulation more harshly than over lying? How would you do that?
What is the actual welfare burden of fire codes? How important are fire codes for fire safety? Is there any chance this could possibly pencil?
This one seems fine as a stub, though it would be nice to actually document the specific cases I remember and as such allow more detailed updating
This one is maybe actually fine as a stub, but I do also think there is a lot more to say
But can we actually have courts though?
More pictures and examples!
Your comment has not made me less interested in studying Switzerland more
The big question for this one is “so what, are you saying we should go around and constantly accuse each other of bad faith? What does it mean for a group of people to notice and be aware of the fact they are having a bad faith conversation? Should you maybe just pretend that every conversation is good faith anyways?”
I need something canonical to link to here. Ideally with lots and lots of examples.
This one I think obviously would be bigger.
My go-to example is cheese. I still have a vivid memory of going to a US supermarket and buying a packet of Kraft… something, then coming back to my hotel room, taking a bite of the thing and becoming horrified. In Switzerland every cheese-like thing in the supermarket is actually cheese.
Add to that universal compulsory health insurance, public transport everywhere, laws making it difficult to fire or evict a person, minimum capital of 20K CHF to start an LLC, and you’ll see clearly whether Switzerland is libertarian or not.
(In case it’s not clear, I think Switzerland’s non-libertarian approach is a very good thing overall. With the exception of policies that make it harder to build more housing, which are as bad as everywhere else.)
Let me guess; it felt like it contained 50% sugar?
Some communities have “assume good faith” as a rule/guideline and that seems to often work. I think if someone is defensive/triggered, responding in kind tends to make the person dig in more. If you instead assume the person is engaging in good faith, that may draw them into a mode of good faith engagement even if that wasn’t their original posture.
Though this is potentially exploitable if the other person never does shift, so you need to make sure you don’t only stay in good-faith mode.
What happens if someone actually does not act in good faith?
I think that on Wikipedia you win this game by being the first one who starts explicitly reminding your opponent of the need to assume good faith. (It is important to only remind them. Never to accuse of anything, because an accusation would itself be a violation of assuming good faith.) If you then keep reminding them of the need to assume good faith in every reply, at some moment your opponent will probably snap and get banned. (The beauty of this strategy is that pointing it out would be a huge violation of assuming good faith. Even if it is already obvious to most smart people what’s happening.)
I’m not sure, but at least a few of those communities are pretty actively moderated, so a moderator might step in if someone seemed to be abusing the rule.
I think you want a rule or strong informal standard that participants try to engage in good faith if you’re asking people to assume it. I think LW has that standard and that’s why it’s far better than any other public forum I know of.