Boy, I sure wouldn’t want to date a person like this [...]
Depends on the details. I don’t think there’s anything necessarily unreasonable about the following sequence of events: A wants some information from B, and presses for it despite B’s reluctance. When the truth actually comes out, A finds it upsetting. (“Do you love me?” “Yes, of course.” “It sometimes doesn’t seem that way. Seriously, and honestly, do you really love me?” “Well … no, not really. I just enjoy having sex with you.” “Oh, shit.”)
Now, being upset because your boyfriend thinks the acting in a play wasn’t much good? Yeah, that seems less reasonable. So I agree that this probably wasn’t a great relationship to be in. But I really can’t endorse any general claim that it’s bad to press for someone’s opinion when one of the possible answers would upset you.
But there are times when both are appropriate. Example: “did you strangle my puppy?” It’s hardly unreasonable to expect an honest answer and then be angry at the person when the honest answer is “yes.”
More generally, it is not inherently contradictory to expect total honesty and to be occasionally angry at what that honesty reveals.
In that case, you’re not angry at the person for telling the truth, you’re angry at them for having strangled your puppy. Similarly, in the love example, the problem isn’t so much the fact that B told A the truth, the problem is that B had systematically lied to A in order to get sex before. In neither case are you actually angry at the person for telling you the truth, you’re angry at them for committing a separate moral wrong.
This seems different from “did you like my play”, since disliking a play isn’t a moral wrong by itself. In that case you really are angry at someone for telling the truth.
I personally am not so much of a saint as to only get mad at people for moral wrongs. I can absolutely see myself getting angry at a close person for not liking a book I wrote / play I directed / whatever. It still has nothing to do with truth—I want them to be honest, I just want them to honestly like my stuff! (Of course that isn’t entirely mature and fair, but people get their emotions all tied up in their artistic work).
That’s exactly my point. And I conjecture that what upset Chris’s girlfriend was the fact that her boyfriend wasn’t impressed by her friends’ acting. I could, of course, be wrong. If her problem was simply that he’d been tactless enough to tell her what she asked him to tell her, then indeed she was bring grossly unreasonable.
If that’s indeed what upset her, then she was also being unreasonable. Consider:
Chris could have been unimpressed because the acting was, in fact, bad. (Let’s not get into whether art can be objectively bad, or any such thing; that’s not the point of the discussion.)
If so, then his reaction is information that the acting is bad. Being angry at the messenger who is conveying this information to you is unreasonable.
On the other hand, Chris could have thought the acting sucked because of differing tastes, and not any objective badness of the acting.
If so, then what his girlfriend has just found out is that their tastes don’t entirely align in this arena. Being angry at Chris for this revelation is, also, unreasonable.
So, in either case, being angry at your boyfriend for not being impressed with your friends’ acting is unreasonable.
Unless, of course, you take the view (as did another poster elsewhere in the comments) that one may, and should, alter one’s opinions on the basis of what one thinks will please one’s close ones. I strongly reject such views.
It could be that she thought the most likely explanation for him not liking their acting was because he had unrealistic expectations or didn’t watch the show with an open mind.
“Their acting sucked. I expected it to be good!” “Well, that was unreasonable of you! Clearly, you should have expected it to suck!” “Oh, well, in that case… yep, it sucked.”
But unfortunately humans aren’t very good at telling them apart. (But on the other hand some humans are worse than others and you have no obligation to date one of the former.)
In that scenario lying may be better for both in the short term, but lying about being in love with someone to trick them into sleeping with you seems pretty likely to upset them more in the long term. And there are more gentle ways to put it which could make honestly explaining that it’s mostly a physical thing which would reduce the immediate negativity considerably, though the amount depends on the listener’s disposition.
I agree that it’s not necessarily unreasonable for a truth to be upsetting, but it is somewhat unreasonable to press someone for a truthful answer (especially something important), then be upset with them specifically for being honest, especially if they have indicated discomfort giving a direct answer and tried skirting around the subject (since this hints that it’s something which may be an uncomfortable truth they may want to avoid), even if it’s pretty common in many circles.
For the avoidance of doubt, in that situation I agree that one shouldn’t lie. I was commenting not on B’s behaviour and attitude but on A’s.
And, also for the avoidance of doubt, if Chris’s girlfriend was upset that he told her the truth rather than that he didn’t like her friends’ acting then she was being 100% unreasonable. (And, as I said, even if it was the latter, still pretty unreasonable. I was making a more general point.)
Depends on the details. I don’t think there’s anything necessarily unreasonable about the following sequence of events: A wants some information from B, and presses for it despite B’s reluctance. When the truth actually comes out, A finds it upsetting. (“Do you love me?” “Yes, of course.” “It sometimes doesn’t seem that way. Seriously, and honestly, do you really love me?” “Well … no, not really. I just enjoy having sex with you.” “Oh, shit.”)
Now, being upset because your boyfriend thinks the acting in a play wasn’t much good? Yeah, that seems less reasonable. So I agree that this probably wasn’t a great relationship to be in. But I really can’t endorse any general claim that it’s bad to press for someone’s opinion when one of the possible answers would upset you.
Having the truth upset you, and being angry at a person for telling you the unpleasant truth, are two very different things.
But there are times when both are appropriate. Example: “did you strangle my puppy?” It’s hardly unreasonable to expect an honest answer and then be angry at the person when the honest answer is “yes.”
More generally, it is not inherently contradictory to expect total honesty and to be occasionally angry at what that honesty reveals.
In that case, you’re not angry at the person for telling the truth, you’re angry at them for having strangled your puppy. Similarly, in the love example, the problem isn’t so much the fact that B told A the truth, the problem is that B had systematically lied to A in order to get sex before. In neither case are you actually angry at the person for telling you the truth, you’re angry at them for committing a separate moral wrong.
This seems different from “did you like my play”, since disliking a play isn’t a moral wrong by itself. In that case you really are angry at someone for telling the truth.
I personally am not so much of a saint as to only get mad at people for moral wrongs. I can absolutely see myself getting angry at a close person for not liking a book I wrote / play I directed / whatever. It still has nothing to do with truth—I want them to be honest, I just want them to honestly like my stuff! (Of course that isn’t entirely mature and fair, but people get their emotions all tied up in their artistic work).
That’s exactly my point. And I conjecture that what upset Chris’s girlfriend was the fact that her boyfriend wasn’t impressed by her friends’ acting. I could, of course, be wrong. If her problem was simply that he’d been tactless enough to tell her what she asked him to tell her, then indeed she was bring grossly unreasonable.
If that’s indeed what upset her, then she was also being unreasonable. Consider:
Chris could have been unimpressed because the acting was, in fact, bad. (Let’s not get into whether art can be objectively bad, or any such thing; that’s not the point of the discussion.)
If so, then his reaction is information that the acting is bad. Being angry at the messenger who is conveying this information to you is unreasonable.
On the other hand, Chris could have thought the acting sucked because of differing tastes, and not any objective badness of the acting.
If so, then what his girlfriend has just found out is that their tastes don’t entirely align in this arena. Being angry at Chris for this revelation is, also, unreasonable.
So, in either case, being angry at your boyfriend for not being impressed with your friends’ acting is unreasonable.
Unless, of course, you take the view (as did another poster elsewhere in the comments) that one may, and should, alter one’s opinions on the basis of what one thinks will please one’s close ones. I strongly reject such views.
It could be that she thought the most likely explanation for him not liking their acting was because he had unrealistic expectations or didn’t watch the show with an open mind.
Both of those suggestions confuse me.
“Their acting sucked. I expected it to be good!” “Well, that was unreasonable of you! Clearly, you should have expected it to suck!” “Oh, well, in that case… yep, it sucked.”
???
What on earth does that mean...?
More like:
“That show was not in the top 30% of all entertainment I have ever consumed.”
″...How was it as amateur theater goes?”
“Oh, easily top fifteen percent there.”
The open-mindedness criterion is a little harder to explain.
But unfortunately humans aren’t very good at telling them apart. (But on the other hand some humans are worse than others and you have no obligation to date one of the former.)
In that scenario lying may be better for both in the short term, but lying about being in love with someone to trick them into sleeping with you seems pretty likely to upset them more in the long term. And there are more gentle ways to put it which could make honestly explaining that it’s mostly a physical thing which would reduce the immediate negativity considerably, though the amount depends on the listener’s disposition.
I agree that it’s not necessarily unreasonable for a truth to be upsetting, but it is somewhat unreasonable to press someone for a truthful answer (especially something important), then be upset with them specifically for being honest, especially if they have indicated discomfort giving a direct answer and tried skirting around the subject (since this hints that it’s something which may be an uncomfortable truth they may want to avoid), even if it’s pretty common in many circles.
For the avoidance of doubt, in that situation I agree that one shouldn’t lie. I was commenting not on B’s behaviour and attitude but on A’s.
And, also for the avoidance of doubt, if Chris’s girlfriend was upset that he told her the truth rather than that he didn’t like her friends’ acting then she was being 100% unreasonable. (And, as I said, even if it was the latter, still pretty unreasonable. I was making a more general point.)