Say a “deathist” is someone who says “death is net good (gives meaning to life, is natural and therefore good, allows change in society, etc.)” and a “lifeist” (“anti-deathist”) is someone who says “death is net bad (life is good, people should not have to involuntarily die, I want me and my loved ones to live)”. There are clearly people who go deathist → lifeist, as that’s most lifeists (if nothing else, as an older kid they would have uttered deathism, as the predominant ideology). One might also argue that young kids are naturally lifeist, and therefore most people have gone lifeist → deathist once. Are there people who have gone deathist → lifeist → deathist? Are there people who were raised lifeist and then went deathist?
a big motivator for me used to be some kind of fear of death. But then I thought about philosophy of personal identity until I shifted to the view that there’s probably no persisting identity over time anyway and in some sense I probably die and get reborn all the time in any case.
I’m clearly doing things that will make me better off in the future. I just feel less continuity to the version of me who might be alive fifty years from now, so the thought of him dying of old age doesn’t create a similar sense of visceral fear. (Even if I would still prefer him to live hundreds of years, if that was doable in non-dystopian conditions.)
@Valentine comes to mind as a person who was raised lifeist and is now still lifeist, but I think has more complicated feelings/views about the situation related to enlightenment and metaphysics that make death an illusion, or something.
I think I’ve been unwaveringly lifeist the whole time. My main shift has been that I think I see some value in deathist sentiment that’s absent from most lifeist rhetoric I’m familiar with. I want a perspective that honors why both arise.
I did dabble with ideas around whether death is an illusion. And I still think there might be something to it. But having done so, it looks like a moving goalposts thing to me. I still don’t want to die, and I don’t want my loved ones to die, and I think that means something that matters.
Fine, but it still seems like a reason one could give for death being net good (which is your chief criterion for being a deathist).
I do think it’s a weaker reason than the second one. The following argument in defence of it is mainly for fun:
I slightly have the feeling that it’s like that decision theory problem where the devil offers you pieces of a poisoned apple one by one. First half, then a quarter, then an eighth, than a sixteenth… You’ll be fine unless you eat the whole apple, in which case you’ll be poisoned. Each time you’re offered a piece it’s rational to take it, but following that policy means you get poisoned.
The analogy is that I consider living for eternity to be scary, and you say, “well, you can stop any time”. True, but it’s always going to be rational for me to live for one more year, and that way lies eternity.
The analogy is that I consider living for eternity to be scary, and you say, “well, you can stop any time”. True, but it’s always going to be rational for me to live for one more year, and that way lies eternity.
The distinction you want is probably not rational/irrational but CDT/UDT or whatever,
Also,
insurance against the worst outcomes lasting forever
well, it’s also insurance against the best outcomes lasting forever (though you’re probably going to reply that bad outcomes are more likely than good outcomes and/or that you care more about preventing bad outcomes than ensuring good outcomes)
Say a “deathist” is someone who says “death is net good (gives meaning to life, is natural and therefore good, allows change in society, etc.)” and a “lifeist” (“anti-deathist”) is someone who says “death is net bad (life is good, people should not have to involuntarily die, I want me and my loved ones to live)”. There are clearly people who go deathist → lifeist, as that’s most lifeists (if nothing else, as an older kid they would have uttered deathism, as the predominant ideology). One might also argue that young kids are naturally lifeist, and therefore most people have gone lifeist → deathist once. Are there people who have gone deathist → lifeist → deathist? Are there people who were raised lifeist and then went deathist?
This is not quite deathism but perhaps a transition in the direction of “my own death is kinda not as bad”:
and in a comment:
@Valentine comes to mind as a person who was raised lifeist and is now still lifeist, but I think has more complicated feelings/views about the situation related to enlightenment and metaphysics that make death an illusion, or something.
I think I’ve been unwaveringly lifeist the whole time. My main shift has been that I think I see some value in deathist sentiment that’s absent from most lifeist rhetoric I’m familiar with. I want a perspective that honors why both arise.
I did dabble with ideas around whether death is an illusion. And I still think there might be something to it. But having done so, it looks like a moving goalposts thing to me. I still don’t want to die, and I don’t want my loved ones to die, and I think that means something that matters.
Me.
In what sense were you lifeist and now deathist? Why the change?
Other (more compelling to me) reasons for being a “deathist”:
Eternity can seem kinda terrifying.
In particular, death is insurance against the worst outcomes lasting forever. Things will always return to neutral eventually and stay there.
A lifeist doesn’t say “You must decide now to live literally forever no matter what happens.”!
Fine, but it still seems like a reason one could give for death being net good (which is your chief criterion for being a deathist).
I do think it’s a weaker reason than the second one. The following argument in defence of it is mainly for fun:
I slightly have the feeling that it’s like that decision theory problem where the devil offers you pieces of a poisoned apple one by one. First half, then a quarter, then an eighth, than a sixteenth… You’ll be fine unless you eat the whole apple, in which case you’ll be poisoned. Each time you’re offered a piece it’s rational to take it, but following that policy means you get poisoned.
The analogy is that I consider living for eternity to be scary, and you say, “well, you can stop any time”. True, but it’s always going to be rational for me to live for one more year, and that way lies eternity.
The distinction you want is probably not rational/irrational but CDT/UDT or whatever,
Also,
well, it’s also insurance against the best outcomes lasting forever (though you’re probably going to reply that bad outcomes are more likely than good outcomes and/or that you care more about preventing bad outcomes than ensuring good outcomes)