If people use their affection in a way that is obviously intended to systematically manipulate me to do things that I do not, in fact, wish to do then yes, of course those instances of affection I will shun.
Since positive reinforcement can only be applied after you already do a thing, then presumably, you at least wished to do it once. So, how is providing you with a bonus to something you’ve already done, manipulating you to do something you don’t “wish to do”?
Caveat: I don’t know why the husband in question doesn’t just put his damn clothes in the hamper. Doesn’t the idea of having soiled clothes lying around repulse him anyway? Especially when sharing the space with another. I mean… ewww. But now back to assuming the target behavioral territory is not already granted by the obvious shelling point or prior arrangement.
So, how is providing you with a bonus to something you’ve already done, manipulating you to do something you don’t “wish to do”?
It seems you wish to unilaterally accept rewarding behavior as positive. I don’t. I have no trouble detecting when rewards are being used as “approximations” towards a behavioral landscape that I clearly don’t want or, especially, have previously declared that I would not accept. I am also able to predict—by reference to past experience and knowledge of my own preferences—that encouraging that reward pattern gives undesired outcomes. As Vaniver mentioned, an important skill to develop is the ability to detect the difference between desired and undesired manipulations.
As a somewhat separate issue, excessive use of physical affection (kisses, hugs, sex) as a “reward” for good behavior changes the experience of those activities—and not in a good way.
excessive use of physical affection (kisses, hugs, sex) as a “reward” for good behavior changes the experience of those activities—and not in a good way.
Could you elaborate on that? I’m entirely okay with physical affection being used as a “reward”, as long as it’s also clear that the person genuinely wants affection with me, and initiates it “just because” too (actually I’d probably be entirely okay with a strictly reward-based system of affection, as long as it was explicit...)
I have no trouble detecting when rewards are being used as “approximations” towards a behavioral landscape that I clearly don’t want
You seem to be assuming, in the example, that the husband doesn’t WANT to be modified to put away his laundry. Is that correct?
If so, is it correct that your objection is “you’re manipulating me in to a state I don’t desire” rather than simply “you’re manipulating me”? Given that you PERSONALLY find soiled clothes disgusting, would you PERSONALLY appreciate reinforcement that helped you overcome such a habit?
You seem to be assuming, in the example, that the husband doesn’t WANT to be modified to put away his laundry. Is that correct?
Yes.
If so, is it correct that your objection is “you’re manipulating me in to a state I don’t desire” rather than simply “you’re manipulating me”? Given that you PERSONALLY find soiled clothes disgusting, would you PERSONALLY appreciate reinforcement that helped you overcome such a habit?
Hm. You quoted a question I asked, and then proceeded to not answer it in any way. The question was:
How is providing you with a bonus to something you’ve already done, manipulating you to do something you don’t “wish to do”?
Instead of answering that question, you supplied various generalizations whose referents in physical reality I can’t ascertain. Please give an example of a situation where somebody being, say, happy that you did something, means that they are manipulating you to do something you don’t “wish to do” (your previous words).
Suppose there’s a crisis at work, and in response to that crisis I step in and solve a problem. Suppose, as part of solving that problem, I take some steps (X) that I don’t enjoy doing and don’t wish to do again. Suppose my boss notices that I did X and was effective at it and decides that she wants me to do X more regularly, and being familiar with the uses of positive reinforcement decides to hand me a large bonus at our next status meeting. Further, she praises me to the skies in public for having done X, and does so in a way that communicates the (entirely accurate) message that my continuing to receive such praise is contingent on my continuing to do X.
I assert that, in this scenario, my boss is applying positive reinforcement techniques with the goal of increasing my likelihood of doing X, by providing me with a bonus to something I’ve already done, where X is something I don’t wish to do.
Do you agree?
As to whether, in so doing, she’s manipulating me… (shrug) I’ve already had that discussion once too often this week. If our only remaining point of disagreement about that scenario is whether the word “manipulating” properly applies to it, I’m happy to leave that point unresolved.
I assert that, in this scenario, my boss is applying positive reinforcement techniques with the goal of increasing my likelihood of doing X, by providing me with a bonus to something I’ve already done, where X is something I don’t wish to do.
So? Are you saying this is a bad thing? That’s what I’m asking wedrifid. Are you offended by said boss doing this?
Ironically, in your scenario, your boss is actually elevating your status: trying to please you in order to obtain a consent that in principle could be had by simply ordering you to do more X. So I don’t think it’s analagous to the situation that upsets wedrifid here.
So, you asked for “an example of a situation where somebody being, say, happy that you did something, means that they are manipulating you to do something you don’t “wish to do”,” and I gave you one.
Apparently, you also wanted an example where the person isn’t also elevating my status in the process, isn’t trying to please me, and isn’t trying to get me to agree to something that they could order me to do. I didn’t realize that, sorry.
No, I can’t think of any coherent examples where someone tries to use positive reinforcement to alter my behavior by doing something that doesn’t please me.
As am I. I refer any interested observers to the previous comments by myself, TheOtherDave, Vaniver and others, as well as the details of the originally quoted example, including the emphasis on successive approximation. I expect that everyone who wishes to understand will from existing comments and that further engagement would be both futile and constitute a reward of an interaction style which is undesirable.
Apparently, you also wanted an example where the person isn’t also elevating my status in the process
Nope, that was a side comment. The main point is that wedrifid said this was a bad thing, and I was asking him. So, it’s actually an answer from someone other than wedrifid that didn’t meet my criteria. ;-)
It depends on why TheOtherDave doesn’t like doing whatever. If it’s something that he could get to like or at least tolerate by being more familiar with it, no biggie.
If it’s just aggravating and he doesn’t get used to it, but it doesn’t come up often enough to make him miserable, then it’s one of those things which is apt to happen in jobs.
If it’s something that takes so many additional hours that he’s running himself ragged, then reinforcing him for doing it would be bad for him in the long run.
Since positive reinforcement can only be applied after you already do a thing, then presumably, you at least wished to do it once. So, how is providing you with a bonus to something you’ve already done, manipulating you to do something you don’t “wish to do”?
Caveat: I don’t know why the husband in question doesn’t just put his damn clothes in the hamper. Doesn’t the idea of having soiled clothes lying around repulse him anyway? Especially when sharing the space with another. I mean… ewww. But now back to assuming the target behavioral territory is not already granted by the obvious shelling point or prior arrangement.
It seems you wish to unilaterally accept rewarding behavior as positive. I don’t. I have no trouble detecting when rewards are being used as “approximations” towards a behavioral landscape that I clearly don’t want or, especially, have previously declared that I would not accept. I am also able to predict—by reference to past experience and knowledge of my own preferences—that encouraging that reward pattern gives undesired outcomes. As Vaniver mentioned, an important skill to develop is the ability to detect the difference between desired and undesired manipulations.
As a somewhat separate issue, excessive use of physical affection (kisses, hugs, sex) as a “reward” for good behavior changes the experience of those activities—and not in a good way.
Could you elaborate on that? I’m entirely okay with physical affection being used as a “reward”, as long as it’s also clear that the person genuinely wants affection with me, and initiates it “just because” too (actually I’d probably be entirely okay with a strictly reward-based system of affection, as long as it was explicit...)
You seem to be assuming, in the example, that the husband doesn’t WANT to be modified to put away his laundry. Is that correct?
If so, is it correct that your objection is “you’re manipulating me in to a state I don’t desire” rather than simply “you’re manipulating me”? Given that you PERSONALLY find soiled clothes disgusting, would you PERSONALLY appreciate reinforcement that helped you overcome such a habit?
Yes.
Yes.
Hm. You quoted a question I asked, and then proceeded to not answer it in any way. The question was:
Instead of answering that question, you supplied various generalizations whose referents in physical reality I can’t ascertain. Please give an example of a situation where somebody being, say, happy that you did something, means that they are manipulating you to do something you don’t “wish to do” (your previous words).
Well, I’m not wedrifid, but OK.
Suppose there’s a crisis at work, and in response to that crisis I step in and solve a problem.
Suppose, as part of solving that problem, I take some steps (X) that I don’t enjoy doing and don’t wish to do again.
Suppose my boss notices that I did X and was effective at it and decides that she wants me to do X more regularly, and being familiar with the uses of positive reinforcement decides to hand me a large bonus at our next status meeting. Further, she praises me to the skies in public for having done X, and does so in a way that communicates the (entirely accurate) message that my continuing to receive such praise is contingent on my continuing to do X.
I assert that, in this scenario, my boss is applying positive reinforcement techniques with the goal of increasing my likelihood of doing X, by providing me with a bonus to something I’ve already done, where X is something I don’t wish to do.
Do you agree?
As to whether, in so doing, she’s manipulating me… (shrug) I’ve already had that discussion once too often this week. If our only remaining point of disagreement about that scenario is whether the word “manipulating” properly applies to it, I’m happy to leave that point unresolved.
So? Are you saying this is a bad thing? That’s what I’m asking wedrifid. Are you offended by said boss doing this?
Ironically, in your scenario, your boss is actually elevating your status: trying to please you in order to obtain a consent that in principle could be had by simply ordering you to do more X. So I don’t think it’s analagous to the situation that upsets wedrifid here.
So, you asked for “an example of a situation where somebody being, say, happy that you did something, means that they are manipulating you to do something you don’t “wish to do”,” and I gave you one.
Apparently, you also wanted an example where the person isn’t also elevating my status in the process, isn’t trying to please me, and isn’t trying to get me to agree to something that they could order me to do. I didn’t realize that, sorry.
No, I can’t think of any coherent examples where someone tries to use positive reinforcement to alter my behavior by doing something that doesn’t please me.
Tapping out now.
As am I. I refer any interested observers to the previous comments by myself, TheOtherDave, Vaniver and others, as well as the details of the originally quoted example, including the emphasis on successive approximation. I expect that everyone who wishes to understand will from existing comments and that further engagement would be both futile and constitute a reward of an interaction style which is undesirable.
Nope, that was a side comment. The main point is that wedrifid said this was a bad thing, and I was asking him. So, it’s actually an answer from someone other than wedrifid that didn’t meet my criteria. ;-)
It depends on why TheOtherDave doesn’t like doing whatever. If it’s something that he could get to like or at least tolerate by being more familiar with it, no biggie.
If it’s just aggravating and he doesn’t get used to it, but it doesn’t come up often enough to make him miserable, then it’s one of those things which is apt to happen in jobs.
If it’s something that takes so many additional hours that he’s running himself ragged, then reinforcing him for doing it would be bad for him in the long run.