Nah, this is definitely a thing. I’m often scared to try winning because I fear my best efforts will not be good enough. Like, I’m effectively following the adage “better not to risk failure than to act and remove all doubt”. Well, some of the time. So when I read about the need to lose, or your “inner Bruce”, in Stuck In The Middle With Bruce, it resonated with me.
And yeah, that’s obviously not what good gamers do. But what made you think I’m talking about good gamers? Or even about most people?
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that it’s universal in either direction. You’re absolutely right that this urge to avoid trying because it’d make failing feel a bit worse is common as well.
It does vary a LOT among groups and situations—some will be dispassionate strategists in money issues, but emotionally-risk-averse in (some) relationships. Many will play a game or games enough to learn some of the lessons about meta-outcomes, and a few will apply that to other areas.
It didn’t resonate with me, though I recognize some of the behaviors in others. I recognize just how thick the wall of my bubble is, though, so I really don’t want to imply universality. I do recommend my approach, though. Losing is part of playing, and shouldn’t affect one’s ego in either direction. The puzzle of how to maximize the overall outcome of the sequence of games in life remains fascinating and worth pursuing.
I do recommend my approach, though. Losing is part of playing, and shouldn’t affect one’s ego in either direction. The puzzle of how to maximize the overall outcome of the sequence of games in life remains fascinating and worth pursuing.
Your approach is clearly good. But the trouble is, how do I deal with Bruce?
It seems easy to deal with Bruce. Take the seat to his left. Do your best to help him enjoy giving you +EV opportunities.
More seriously, I didn’t engage deeply with the linked post, more about the text on LW. the link had enough blanket statements and far-mode stories that I didn’t think there was much information for me. What, specifically, is your difficulty? If it’s that “many people spew money because of emotional disregulation or bad epistemology”, you mostly have to decide whether and how you can help them, and how you can catch some of the spew when you can’t help. This itself is a game that you may or may not be able to win, and deciding your goals and how to pursue them is key.
I should admit that one of the reasons I play less poker nowadays is that I find I don’t enjoy the company of the people who make it profitable. I do enjoy those who make it unprofitable, by thinking about the game and talking intelligently about life. The goals of winning and of optimizing my social interaction are at odds, so I do something else.
It’s been said and written many times—the important skill in poker is game selection: find the softest field, and exploit it. As said long long ago on rec.gambling.poker: “to succeed in life, surround yourself with people smarter than you. to succeed in poker, surround yourself with people dumber than you.”
Ah, your inner Bruce. I do sympathize, though I’m not sure I have great advice, other than self-awareness and noticing when it happens. “Akrasia” doesn’t get discussed around here as much as it used to, and it was never particularly rigorous discussion, but it may be worth looking for some older posts and sequences. https://www.lesswrong.com/w/akrasia
Nah, this is definitely a thing. I’m often scared to try winning because I fear my best efforts will not be good enough. Like, I’m effectively following the adage “better not to risk failure than to act and remove all doubt”. Well, some of the time. So when I read about the need to lose, or your “inner Bruce”, in Stuck In The Middle With Bruce, it resonated with me.
And yeah, that’s obviously not what good gamers do. But what made you think I’m talking about good gamers? Or even about most people?
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that it’s universal in either direction. You’re absolutely right that this urge to avoid trying because it’d make failing feel a bit worse is common as well.
It does vary a LOT among groups and situations—some will be dispassionate strategists in money issues, but emotionally-risk-averse in (some) relationships. Many will play a game or games enough to learn some of the lessons about meta-outcomes, and a few will apply that to other areas.
It didn’t resonate with me, though I recognize some of the behaviors in others. I recognize just how thick the wall of my bubble is, though, so I really don’t want to imply universality. I do recommend my approach, though. Losing is part of playing, and shouldn’t affect one’s ego in either direction. The puzzle of how to maximize the overall outcome of the sequence of games in life remains fascinating and worth pursuing.
Your approach is clearly good. But the trouble is, how do I deal with Bruce?
It seems easy to deal with Bruce. Take the seat to his left. Do your best to help him enjoy giving you +EV opportunities.
More seriously, I didn’t engage deeply with the linked post, more about the text on LW. the link had enough blanket statements and far-mode stories that I didn’t think there was much information for me. What, specifically, is your difficulty? If it’s that “many people spew money because of emotional disregulation or bad epistemology”, you mostly have to decide whether and how you can help them, and how you can catch some of the spew when you can’t help. This itself is a game that you may or may not be able to win, and deciding your goals and how to pursue them is key.
I should admit that one of the reasons I play less poker nowadays is that I find I don’t enjoy the company of the people who make it profitable. I do enjoy those who make it unprofitable, by thinking about the game and talking intelligently about life. The goals of winning and of optimizing my social interaction are at odds, so I do something else.
It’s been said and written many times—the important skill in poker is game selection: find the softest field, and exploit it. As said long long ago on rec.gambling.poker: “to succeed in life, surround yourself with people smarter than you. to succeed in poker, surround yourself with people dumber than you.”
Nailing down what’s wrong specifically is part of my issue.
Ah, your inner Bruce. I do sympathize, though I’m not sure I have great advice, other than self-awareness and noticing when it happens. “Akrasia” doesn’t get discussed around here as much as it used to, and it was never particularly rigorous discussion, but it may be worth looking for some older posts and sequences. https://www.lesswrong.com/w/akrasia