Hm. I notice we have very different ideas on this.
As a male in my early 30′s, I’ve observed myself go through these iterations between commitment and freedom. I’ve got a strong grass-is-always-greener streak in me. When I’m with someone in a relationship, I can feel bored and discontent. When I’m single, I can feel lonely and unfulfilled. I know of many people who feel similar, to some extent.
My view is that it is wise to recognize this about our nature and make commitments accordingly. I see lifelong commitment as exactly that. It makes certain things possible and other things impossible. It provides some opportunities and it requires the sacrifice of others. It is a choice. And it involves ongoing choices. For life.
I’m not particularly concerned with society’s views on the issue. I’m speaking about two consenting adults who entered into such a commitment. It is my view that it is very clear she defected when they had made an agreement to always cooperate. That is all I meant. She wins and he loses because she chose to defect and he never stopped cooperating.
I’m very sensitive to the possibility of “falling out of love” with somebody. I worry about it. I must say, however, the older I get, the more I think that love is choice more than a particular feeling. It is a conscious choice, even sometimes despite your feelings, to place someone else’s needs above your own. In turn, you make yourself reliant on them to do the same, though you do nothing to enforce that they follow through. You simply hope and trust. It leaves you incredibly vulnerable (See Gunnar’s story).
I’ve had people love me this way and I took advantage of it. And I’ve loved people this way and they took advantage of it.
I perhaps should have said it that way, instead of saying she was wrong. She took advantage of him. And that is okay. But that was not the commitment they shared, and her breaking that agreement lead to serious consequences for several parties.
I think that love is choice more than a particular feeling. It is a conscious choice, even sometimes despite your feelings, to place someone else’s needs above your own. In turn, you make yourself reliant on them to do the same, though you do nothing to enforce that they follow through. You simply hope and trust.
I completely agree with this. Assuming that “place someone else’s needs above your own” means that the other person’s higher-priority needs are placed above my lower-priority needs (not that any their need is automatically placed above any my need). Sometimes we even do it explicitly with my girlfriend; when we want different things, we ask each other to express how strongly we care about this issue on a scale from 1 to 10; and then we usually follow the choice with the higher number. Of course this system also requires trust.
Assuming that “place someone else’s needs above your own” means that the other person’s higher-priority needs are placed above my lower-priority needs (not that any their need is automatically placed above any my need).
I suppose I do mean that, though I’ve never thought of that distinction. Hm. Thanks—I think you’ve improved the model in my mind.
I’m very sensitive to the possibility of “falling out of love” with somebody.
I wonder a bit about this “falling our of love”.
Obviously it is not that the ‘chemistry’ no longer matches. Do you mean infatuation wearing off? Which it obviously does for most people withing months. Or is it a bonding (which seems to have a strong neurophysiological basis) that is breaking?
To clarify: For us chemistry didn’t match very well. I fell heavily in love with her so I assume that was infatuated. And also obviously I bonded very strongly.
But I could rekindle the feeling of infatuation at will at any time. I could willingly flood myself with happiness. But I used it sparingly. I feared that it’d wear off if used too much or would bind to the wrong triggers. To keep it during crisis I reattached it to the children and I can still call it. So I say yes. Obviously at least that part is subject to will,
My bonding on the other hand didn’t seem to wear off with time and only broke under extreme pressure..
So “falling out of love” doesn’t really make sense to me.
I think of it now as the result of the failure to maintain a shared sufficient intentional conscious effort to the relationship by each partner.
The infatuation wears off. Felt affection isn’t always consistent—there are mornings when you wake up and don’t even like the person lying next to you, let alone feel in love with them.
Yet, you keep putting effort into love. Into being creative and helpful and courteous, etc. When that stops, there is the possibility for the relationship to wither.
In that sense, I don’t really think about “falling out of love” in the same way anymore. I still have a sense of worry about what that might feel like. But as I get older, I’m more aware of how fickle feelings can be. I’m aware love has a lot to do with choice.
The other thing is this: There is some huge chunk of the “successful” relationships out there that are functioning nowhere near what you would see as successful. Just because two people share a mortgage and have kids doesn’t mean they are fulfilled or happy.
Hm. I notice we have very different ideas on this.
As a male in my early 30′s, I’ve observed myself go through these iterations between commitment and freedom. I’ve got a strong grass-is-always-greener streak in me. When I’m with someone in a relationship, I can feel bored and discontent. When I’m single, I can feel lonely and unfulfilled. I know of many people who feel similar, to some extent.
My view is that it is wise to recognize this about our nature and make commitments accordingly. I see lifelong commitment as exactly that. It makes certain things possible and other things impossible. It provides some opportunities and it requires the sacrifice of others. It is a choice. And it involves ongoing choices. For life.
I’m not particularly concerned with society’s views on the issue. I’m speaking about two consenting adults who entered into such a commitment. It is my view that it is very clear she defected when they had made an agreement to always cooperate. That is all I meant. She wins and he loses because she chose to defect and he never stopped cooperating.
I’m very sensitive to the possibility of “falling out of love” with somebody. I worry about it. I must say, however, the older I get, the more I think that love is choice more than a particular feeling. It is a conscious choice, even sometimes despite your feelings, to place someone else’s needs above your own. In turn, you make yourself reliant on them to do the same, though you do nothing to enforce that they follow through. You simply hope and trust. It leaves you incredibly vulnerable (See Gunnar’s story).
I’ve had people love me this way and I took advantage of it. And I’ve loved people this way and they took advantage of it.
I perhaps should have said it that way, instead of saying she was wrong. She took advantage of him. And that is okay. But that was not the commitment they shared, and her breaking that agreement lead to serious consequences for several parties.
I completely agree with this. Assuming that “place someone else’s needs above your own” means that the other person’s higher-priority needs are placed above my lower-priority needs (not that any their need is automatically placed above any my need). Sometimes we even do it explicitly with my girlfriend; when we want different things, we ask each other to express how strongly we care about this issue on a scale from 1 to 10; and then we usually follow the choice with the higher number. Of course this system also requires trust.
I suppose I do mean that, though I’ve never thought of that distinction. Hm. Thanks—I think you’ve improved the model in my mind.
And you need some mechanism to avoid skewing only because someone has only slightly stronger priorities.
I wonder a bit about this “falling our of love”.
Obviously it is not that the ‘chemistry’ no longer matches. Do you mean infatuation wearing off? Which it obviously does for most people withing months. Or is it a bonding (which seems to have a strong neurophysiological basis) that is breaking?
To clarify: For us chemistry didn’t match very well. I fell heavily in love with her so I assume that was infatuated. And also obviously I bonded very strongly.
But I could rekindle the feeling of infatuation at will at any time. I could willingly flood myself with happiness. But I used it sparingly. I feared that it’d wear off if used too much or would bind to the wrong triggers. To keep it during crisis I reattached it to the children and I can still call it. So I say yes. Obviously at least that part is subject to will,
My bonding on the other hand didn’t seem to wear off with time and only broke under extreme pressure..
So “falling out of love” doesn’t really make sense to me.
I think of it now as the result of the failure to maintain a shared sufficient intentional conscious effort to the relationship by each partner.
The infatuation wears off. Felt affection isn’t always consistent—there are mornings when you wake up and don’t even like the person lying next to you, let alone feel in love with them.
Yet, you keep putting effort into love. Into being creative and helpful and courteous, etc. When that stops, there is the possibility for the relationship to wither.
In that sense, I don’t really think about “falling out of love” in the same way anymore. I still have a sense of worry about what that might feel like. But as I get older, I’m more aware of how fickle feelings can be. I’m aware love has a lot to do with choice.
The other thing is this: There is some huge chunk of the “successful” relationships out there that are functioning nowhere near what you would see as successful. Just because two people share a mortgage and have kids doesn’t mean they are fulfilled or happy.