Wow, thanks for this! It will take me awhile to read all the excerpts, and I don’t intend to read the book, but my initial impression is that this is a dilbert-like parody of the culture of corporations, or perhaps a near-worst-case example, rather than a description of an average or median corporate work life. At least it doesn’t match my own experience in large software firms, but I have the advantage (at least for the last 25 years or so, less so before that) of mobility: workers and line managers are highly sought, so can (somewhat) easily leave if a situation is too bad.
I would like to see a comparison to government (especially managers below the elected levels, as elections carry their own special pathologies), and a bit more acknowledgement of the object-level reality of corporations in terms of measurable things like revenue. It seems like most of these quotes are directly at odds with seeking profit (either long- or short-term), and it would be enlightening to hear why there’s not a bunch more efficient organizations taking over.
The people described certainly have it far worse than I’ve ever had it or seen it up close. But it matches and resonates with my experiences enough that I do not think these were cherry-picked corporations or examples, at all, merely randomly picked examples of large corporations outside of tech, with things usually left implicit made explicit (and we have an entire section here on why things are so often left implicit, a major theme).
I definitely don’t think this is a parody or worst-case scenario. This is explicit content to be taken both seriously and literally.
I think the main reason I’ve never seen it this bad is that I’ve never worked in a system with this many layers of management—we’re talking about 25+ grades of manager and 6+ levels of hierarchy in these corporations. The model says that if you’re ‘on the line’, meaning you deal with object-level reality slash don’t manage anyone, you escape most of this. It’s when you manage people who manage people, and are in turn managed by others who are managed by others, that this sets in full blast.
Partly the problems described here are a function of scale and time, I think. They occur when it is hard to link a person’s actions to real world results, as in very large organizations and those that have grown more complex over time. This may explain people’s experiences that it is not like this <where I work>.
In the early days (1970s) in IT it was not really like this even in large corporations. And in small organizations it is usually not so much like this either, except to the extent that they are dependent on maze-type organizations.
Large slabs of the quotes above (I read it all) could be taken verbatim from numerous organizations I was involved with.
Reading this was one of those experiences where you suspected something, but still retained some shreds of hope that it wasn’t so. And now you know that it is so. The covd19 pandemic also produced a lot of those types of experiences for me.
Both (low-level) management and (somewhat senior) technical. In previous work, as an owner of a tiny (10 employee) business, and as a line-level (4-12 direct reports, no indirect) software manager. For the last 20 years or so as an individual contributor, with no reports but a fair bit of org strategy and people-management input over a 600-person division in an extremely large corporation, with some interaction and discussion with very senior management (VP and SVP who have 8-10 levels of management between them and the most junior ICs).
There is certainly a fair amount of the stuff described here, but not to that extent and there’s also a _whole lot_ of object-level visibility (across all levels) of the intent to actually deliver stuff that works and attracts customers (and therefore revenue) over the medium- and long-term.
I pretty strongly suspect that different industries (and different companies within industries) are on different points on this scale. It’s quite possible that timeframe of object-level feedback loops and mobility of workforce force software companies to do better than established industrial companies who’ve managed to get government and market-perception protection of their revenue streams.
[ This applies generally, but I figure I should state it clearly here: unless otherwise stated, nothing I write is endorsed by my employer. It is solely based on my personal observations and opinions. And the necessity to include such a disclaimer is indicative that I do recognize some amount of CYA and dilbert-ism in my work. ]
This was probably an accurate depiction of American corporate management when it was written, in the 80s. Since then, things have changed somewhat (in part by tech becoming a larger fraction of the economy, and by increasing meritocracy through increased competitiveness), but I think it’s still present in a major way.
It seems like most of these quotes are directly at odds with seeking profit (either long- or short-term), and it would be enlightening to hear why there’s not a bunch more efficient organizations taking over.
I think this is happening, but it’s slow. Koch Industries claims that a major piece of social tech they use is compensating managers based on the net present value of the thing they’re managing, rather than whether they’re hitting key targets, and they’re growing at something like 10% faster than the rest of the economy, but that still means a very long time until they’ve taken over (and the larger they get, the harder it is to maintain that relative rate).
Koch Industries claims that a major piece of social tech they use is compensating managers based on the net present value of the thing they’re managing, rather than whether they’re hitting key targets
I looked but can’t seem to find any information about this. Do you have any idea where I could explore this more?
I wish the book were a parody but it fits my own experience too well. I’ve been a consultant and therefore experienced a larger number of corporations that someone who has held jobs. it’s been variable, with some years up to 10 client corporations in the same year. large and small.
I think your ideas of comparison books are good because there is a lot of distaste for government of any kind running through the culture now.
I would like to see a comparison to government (especially managers below the elected levels, as elections carry their own special pathologies),
It’s likely very different in a country like the US where a newly elected government can change a lot of the heads of departments and a country like the UK where a newly elected government can’t even decide on the private secreteries.
Wow, thanks for this! It will take me awhile to read all the excerpts, and I don’t intend to read the book, but my initial impression is that this is a dilbert-like parody of the culture of corporations, or perhaps a near-worst-case example, rather than a description of an average or median corporate work life. At least it doesn’t match my own experience in large software firms, but I have the advantage (at least for the last 25 years or so, less so before that) of mobility: workers and line managers are highly sought, so can (somewhat) easily leave if a situation is too bad.
I would like to see a comparison to government (especially managers below the elected levels, as elections carry their own special pathologies), and a bit more acknowledgement of the object-level reality of corporations in terms of measurable things like revenue. It seems like most of these quotes are directly at odds with seeking profit (either long- or short-term), and it would be enlightening to hear why there’s not a bunch more efficient organizations taking over.
The people described certainly have it far worse than I’ve ever had it or seen it up close. But it matches and resonates with my experiences enough that I do not think these were cherry-picked corporations or examples, at all, merely randomly picked examples of large corporations outside of tech, with things usually left implicit made explicit (and we have an entire section here on why things are so often left implicit, a major theme).
I definitely don’t think this is a parody or worst-case scenario. This is explicit content to be taken both seriously and literally.
I think the main reason I’ve never seen it this bad is that I’ve never worked in a system with this many layers of management—we’re talking about 25+ grades of manager and 6+ levels of hierarchy in these corporations. The model says that if you’re ‘on the line’, meaning you deal with object-level reality slash don’t manage anyone, you escape most of this. It’s when you manage people who manage people, and are in turn managed by others who are managed by others, that this sets in full blast.
Partly the problems described here are a function of scale and time, I think. They occur when it is hard to link a person’s actions to real world results, as in very large organizations and those that have grown more complex over time. This may explain people’s experiences that it is not like this <where I work>.
In the early days (1970s) in IT it was not really like this even in large corporations. And in small organizations it is usually not so much like this either, except to the extent that they are dependent on maze-type organizations.
Large slabs of the quotes above (I read it all) could be taken verbatim from numerous organizations I was involved with.
Reading this was one of those experiences where you suspected something, but still retained some shreds of hope that it wasn’t so. And now you know that it is so. The covd19 pandemic also produced a lot of those types of experiences for me.
It matches my experience in the corporate world pretty closely. Have you worked in management at all, or just in a technical role?
Both (low-level) management and (somewhat senior) technical. In previous work, as an owner of a tiny (10 employee) business, and as a line-level (4-12 direct reports, no indirect) software manager. For the last 20 years or so as an individual contributor, with no reports but a fair bit of org strategy and people-management input over a 600-person division in an extremely large corporation, with some interaction and discussion with very senior management (VP and SVP who have 8-10 levels of management between them and the most junior ICs).
There is certainly a fair amount of the stuff described here, but not to that extent and there’s also a _whole lot_ of object-level visibility (across all levels) of the intent to actually deliver stuff that works and attracts customers (and therefore revenue) over the medium- and long-term.
I pretty strongly suspect that different industries (and different companies within industries) are on different points on this scale. It’s quite possible that timeframe of object-level feedback loops and mobility of workforce force software companies to do better than established industrial companies who’ve managed to get government and market-perception protection of their revenue streams.
[ This applies generally, but I figure I should state it clearly here: unless otherwise stated, nothing I write is endorsed by my employer. It is solely based on my personal observations and opinions. And the necessity to include such a disclaimer is indicative that I do recognize some amount of CYA and dilbert-ism in my work. ]
This was probably an accurate depiction of American corporate management when it was written, in the 80s. Since then, things have changed somewhat (in part by tech becoming a larger fraction of the economy, and by increasing meritocracy through increased competitiveness), but I think it’s still present in a major way.
I think this is happening, but it’s slow. Koch Industries claims that a major piece of social tech they use is compensating managers based on the net present value of the thing they’re managing, rather than whether they’re hitting key targets, and they’re growing at something like 10% faster than the rest of the economy, but that still means a very long time until they’ve taken over (and the larger they get, the harder it is to maintain that relative rate).
I looked but can’t seem to find any information about this. Do you have any idea where I could explore this more?
They wrote a book about it, the Science of Success.
I wish the book were a parody but it fits my own experience too well. I’ve been a consultant and therefore experienced a larger number of corporations that someone who has held jobs. it’s been variable, with some years up to 10 client corporations in the same year. large and small.
I think your ideas of comparison books are good because there is a lot of distaste for government of any kind running through the culture now.
It’s likely very different in a country like the US where a newly elected government can change a lot of the heads of departments and a country like the UK where a newly elected government can’t even decide on the private secreteries.