I agree with most of your comment but I wanted to single out one bit
and controlled studies could probably change most of these people’s minds on it.
Given how many people still do homeopathy despite the controlled studies strongly showing it doesn’t work, and similar issues with the vaccines-autism crowd, this seems overly optimistic.
You may have a point. However, I have heard two different definitions of homeopathy, and I suspect that most people who say they practice homeopathy prefer the less ridiculous one. The more ridiculous one is the idea that dilluting something to the point where water is all that’s left is a good way to amplify its curative powers. I don’t doubt that there have been studies disproving this kind of “magic” water, I’ve never had anyone seriously advocate it to me, and wouldn’t hesitate to laugh in their face if they did.
But then we have people that think something along the lines that e.g. taking an herb which causes the symptoms of a disease (say, cayenne pepper for a cold) will hasten recovery. That’s described as “homeopathy” because that’s what “homeopathy” (“like the disease”) actually means. Conventional medicine that seeks to treat the functional symptoms directly is often described as “allopathic” medicine (“opposite the disease”). These people often contend that allopathic medicine causes long-term problems by circumventing the body’s natural healing processes.
Obviously it’s a case of sometimes-valid heuristics gone wrong. Such individuals aren’t right (especially not the ones who think this is a general rule of biology). But it doesn’t change the fact that, watching “skeptics” tear down a flimsy representation of the idea by focusing on the stupidest possible incarnation, it comes across as a better example of tribal politics than rationalism. There’s also nothing innately crazy (certainly not evil-mutant-crazy) about thinking the body’s natural processes are more capable of certain kinds of things (e.g. killing cancer cells) than modern medicine, and that they can be tweaked with the proper stimulation.
The real problem is not belief in alternative cures like drinking dilluted bleach with lemon juice to cure malaria (which are at least materialistic, empirical, evidence-based, and ultimately scientific claims about the universe), it’s failure to believe in well-known and scientifically studied phenomena such as the placebo effect, hormesis, and confirmation/selection bias.
You may have a point. There’s a crowd of people who do not understand the most basic of science, who are susceptible to MMS for the same reasons they are susceptible to say Astrology. However that’s not the only thing at work here. Part of it is that people often find it plausible that ivory-tower science (with all of its obscure focuses and elaborate, often highly beaurocratic needs) has overlooked a simple solution that maverick scientists and amateur experimenters (desperate to cure stuff like malaria and cancer, and willing to try anything, including bleach) didn’t miss. Its not an anti-science viewpoint at all, but a skepticism of mainstream methods of achieving the scientific ideal of rational empirical observation.
On another note: It’s strange to me that vaccines are usually attacked by the same people who promote homeopathy, and that skeptics who promote vaccines usually take the position that homeopathy is bunk. The term “homeopathy” does not etymologically have anything to do with how dillute the drug is, rather it means “like the disease” and refers to the ancient doctrine that “like cures like”. A vaccine actually illustrates this principle quite well: a virus is rendered impotent by some means, but still stimulates the symptoms, and in particular the immune response for the disease. If there was ever a proof positive that homeopathy works, it is vaccination.
It’s surprising that skeptics have been content to allow the con artists their ridiculous premise that “homeopathy” somehow equals or implies the hyperdillution of the active ingredient. Instead they should have insisted on etymological purity and pointed out that real science has developed real homeopathic (“like cures like”) approaches that work well, and it is not by hyperdillution or special mystical properties of things at all, but via rational and empirical studies like biochemistry, virology, and immunology.
: It’s strange to me that vaccines are usually attacked by the same people who promote homeopathy, and that skeptics who promote vaccines usually take the position that homeopathy is bunk. The term “homeopathy” does not etymologically have anything to do with how dillute the drug is, rather it means “like the disease” and refers to the ancient doctrine that “like cures like”. A vaccine actually illustrates this principle quite well: a virus is rendered impotent by some means, but still stimulates the symptoms, and in particular the immune response for the disease. If there was ever a proof positive that homeopathy works, it is vaccination.
This is confused. Vaccination is a specific, well-understood procedure with known mechanisms. The similarity to homeopathy is purely superficial.
Instead they should have insisted on etymological purity and pointed out that real science has developed real homeopathic (“like cures like”) approaches that work well, and it is not by hyperdillution or special mystical properties of things at all, but via rational and empirical studies like biochemistry, virology, and immunology.
First, even one thought of “like cures like”- vaccines exist as a preventative measure, they don’t cure something already there. Second, emphasizing the etymology of a word to dictate what the word must mean doesn’t change the nature of reality and is an example of using words badly.
Calling something one thing versus another doesn’t alter the reality being described. However, choice of nomenclature does affect how people tend to think about things, and I think does take its toll on discourse over time, by creating pockets of cognitive dissonance and subtle miscommunication.
The fact that not only a term like “preventative medicine” but also a word which literally means “like the disease” don’t instantly generate mental pointers to vaccines as an obvious and superb positive example of both of these things, seems like a pretty good illustration of words having gone horribly wrong. (Incidentally, vaccines do in some cases cure existing conditions, e.g. rabies.)
Vaccines function by well understood mechanisms that stand in sharp contrast to the magic water kind of homeopathy. That’s the whole point as to why I would consider vaccines a stronger example for the darned word (it being an etymologically generic sounding word which aptly describes the notion that—in at least some cases—“what has the best chance of curing the disease is something that resembles the disease”). Permitting an etymologically unrelated meaning to become the primary definition, especially if that is a valueless and silly thing, is linguofiscally irresponsible. Latin roots don’t grow on trees (well, perhaps they sort of do, but my point is that there are costs to this sort of thing).
Debunking “homeopathy” in a way that respects the idea of the word being synonymous with Hahnemann’s magic water is an unnecessarily weak approach. To defeat an argument you ought to use the strongest face-value interpretation, not just the one you think the other person probably means by it (or even what the history books say they mean by it). Start by saying “your so-called homeopathy isn’t even a consistent concept, otherwise you guys would be championing vaccines”. Complain about the use of a word to mean an unrelated concept. Then move on to disprove the magic water hypothesis with a different (mutually acceptable) word being applied like “dilutive persistence” or some such thing.
This is an interesting set of points which I’ll need to think more about. My immediate reaction is that a) you overestimate the level to which the vast majority of people are actually influenced at all by the roots of the words they hear. b) The statement about the rabies vaccine isn’t really accurate- it doesn’t cure rabies. If you actually get serious symptoms the vaccine is essentially close to useless. The vaccine is given to people after they have been bitten because the immunity it induces can often be enough before the virus has had a large chance to multiply. We generally only do it in that circumstance because the immunity given is short-term, on the order of 2-3 years, and humans rarely get rabies now that we have largescale animal vaccination programs.
Your point about using the connotations of words to our advantage is an interesting one however that I’ll need to think more about.
This just shows that etymology is a poor way to determine what words actually mean in the real word. Words have no meaning apart from what people mean when they say the words or listen to them.
I agree with most of your comment but I wanted to single out one bit
Given how many people still do homeopathy despite the controlled studies strongly showing it doesn’t work, and similar issues with the vaccines-autism crowd, this seems overly optimistic.
You may have a point. However, I have heard two different definitions of homeopathy, and I suspect that most people who say they practice homeopathy prefer the less ridiculous one. The more ridiculous one is the idea that dilluting something to the point where water is all that’s left is a good way to amplify its curative powers. I don’t doubt that there have been studies disproving this kind of “magic” water, I’ve never had anyone seriously advocate it to me, and wouldn’t hesitate to laugh in their face if they did.
But then we have people that think something along the lines that e.g. taking an herb which causes the symptoms of a disease (say, cayenne pepper for a cold) will hasten recovery. That’s described as “homeopathy” because that’s what “homeopathy” (“like the disease”) actually means. Conventional medicine that seeks to treat the functional symptoms directly is often described as “allopathic” medicine (“opposite the disease”). These people often contend that allopathic medicine causes long-term problems by circumventing the body’s natural healing processes.
Obviously it’s a case of sometimes-valid heuristics gone wrong. Such individuals aren’t right (especially not the ones who think this is a general rule of biology). But it doesn’t change the fact that, watching “skeptics” tear down a flimsy representation of the idea by focusing on the stupidest possible incarnation, it comes across as a better example of tribal politics than rationalism. There’s also nothing innately crazy (certainly not evil-mutant-crazy) about thinking the body’s natural processes are more capable of certain kinds of things (e.g. killing cancer cells) than modern medicine, and that they can be tweaked with the proper stimulation.
The real problem is not belief in alternative cures like drinking dilluted bleach with lemon juice to cure malaria (which are at least materialistic, empirical, evidence-based, and ultimately scientific claims about the universe), it’s failure to believe in well-known and scientifically studied phenomena such as the placebo effect, hormesis, and confirmation/selection bias.
You may have a point. There’s a crowd of people who do not understand the most basic of science, who are susceptible to MMS for the same reasons they are susceptible to say Astrology. However that’s not the only thing at work here. Part of it is that people often find it plausible that ivory-tower science (with all of its obscure focuses and elaborate, often highly beaurocratic needs) has overlooked a simple solution that maverick scientists and amateur experimenters (desperate to cure stuff like malaria and cancer, and willing to try anything, including bleach) didn’t miss. Its not an anti-science viewpoint at all, but a skepticism of mainstream methods of achieving the scientific ideal of rational empirical observation.
On another note: It’s strange to me that vaccines are usually attacked by the same people who promote homeopathy, and that skeptics who promote vaccines usually take the position that homeopathy is bunk. The term “homeopathy” does not etymologically have anything to do with how dillute the drug is, rather it means “like the disease” and refers to the ancient doctrine that “like cures like”. A vaccine actually illustrates this principle quite well: a virus is rendered impotent by some means, but still stimulates the symptoms, and in particular the immune response for the disease. If there was ever a proof positive that homeopathy works, it is vaccination.
It’s surprising that skeptics have been content to allow the con artists their ridiculous premise that “homeopathy” somehow equals or implies the hyperdillution of the active ingredient. Instead they should have insisted on etymological purity and pointed out that real science has developed real homeopathic (“like cures like”) approaches that work well, and it is not by hyperdillution or special mystical properties of things at all, but via rational and empirical studies like biochemistry, virology, and immunology.
This is confused. Vaccination is a specific, well-understood procedure with known mechanisms. The similarity to homeopathy is purely superficial.
First, even one thought of “like cures like”- vaccines exist as a preventative measure, they don’t cure something already there. Second, emphasizing the etymology of a word to dictate what the word must mean doesn’t change the nature of reality and is an example of using words badly.
Calling something one thing versus another doesn’t alter the reality being described. However, choice of nomenclature does affect how people tend to think about things, and I think does take its toll on discourse over time, by creating pockets of cognitive dissonance and subtle miscommunication.
The fact that not only a term like “preventative medicine” but also a word which literally means “like the disease” don’t instantly generate mental pointers to vaccines as an obvious and superb positive example of both of these things, seems like a pretty good illustration of words having gone horribly wrong. (Incidentally, vaccines do in some cases cure existing conditions, e.g. rabies.)
Vaccines function by well understood mechanisms that stand in sharp contrast to the magic water kind of homeopathy. That’s the whole point as to why I would consider vaccines a stronger example for the darned word (it being an etymologically generic sounding word which aptly describes the notion that—in at least some cases—“what has the best chance of curing the disease is something that resembles the disease”). Permitting an etymologically unrelated meaning to become the primary definition, especially if that is a valueless and silly thing, is linguofiscally irresponsible. Latin roots don’t grow on trees (well, perhaps they sort of do, but my point is that there are costs to this sort of thing).
Debunking “homeopathy” in a way that respects the idea of the word being synonymous with Hahnemann’s magic water is an unnecessarily weak approach. To defeat an argument you ought to use the strongest face-value interpretation, not just the one you think the other person probably means by it (or even what the history books say they mean by it). Start by saying “your so-called homeopathy isn’t even a consistent concept, otherwise you guys would be championing vaccines”. Complain about the use of a word to mean an unrelated concept. Then move on to disprove the magic water hypothesis with a different (mutually acceptable) word being applied like “dilutive persistence” or some such thing.
This is an interesting set of points which I’ll need to think more about. My immediate reaction is that a) you overestimate the level to which the vast majority of people are actually influenced at all by the roots of the words they hear. b) The statement about the rabies vaccine isn’t really accurate- it doesn’t cure rabies. If you actually get serious symptoms the vaccine is essentially close to useless. The vaccine is given to people after they have been bitten because the immunity it induces can often be enough before the virus has had a large chance to multiply. We generally only do it in that circumstance because the immunity given is short-term, on the order of 2-3 years, and humans rarely get rabies now that we have largescale animal vaccination programs.
Your point about using the connotations of words to our advantage is an interesting one however that I’ll need to think more about.
This just shows that etymology is a poor way to determine what words actually mean in the real word. Words have no meaning apart from what people mean when they say the words or listen to them.
Etymological purity has no practical value.