No, body fat percentage doesn’t necessarily say anything about genetic fitness, since bodyfat levels are highly dependent on diet. Show me a tribe that says asymmetrical faces, high waist:hip ratio, or pockmarked skin are attractive female traits. Those are real claims of “objective subjectivity” made by evolutionary psychologists. You seem to be unwilling to address their actual claims.
The main problem I have with this series, is that you sort of make vague criticisms about a “standard account” without being precise and specific about what you think is the correct account.
This study describes a tribe that finds a high waist:hip ratio most attractive. The authors argue that waist:hip ratio signals weight, and that heavier females are more adaptive in environments where obesity is not a problem (like the human EEA). I’m not sure that I buy that argument, but I’m not ready to rule it out either.
This followup study suggests that the methodology was misleading—attractiveness was evaluated from frontal pictures rather than the WHR measurement that is correlated with health, and the reported preferences changed when examining profile pictures.
Thanks for tracking that down. The Hadza still seem to prefer a significantly higher ratio than Americans so, but yes, the effect is much less extreme.
I have a couple methodological problems with both studies, though. The earlier study found a frontal WHR preference around .9 and tested the .4-1.0 range, which may mean that subjects who would have selected a frontal WHR greater than 1.0 had their preference undervalued.
The study on profile WHR only offered choices in the .55-.75 range, which seems problematic if most Hadza prefer WHRs above .8. More importantly, the illustrations used vary profile WHR by adjusting buttock projection and leaving waist-size identical, which makes weight a huge confounding factor.
Drawing strong conclusions from this evidence doesn’t seem possible.
This issue is discussed in some depth in my Ev. Psych. textbook: Evolutionary Psychology: The New Science of the Mind by David Buss. The Hazda women actually have a higher average WHR compared to the global average. Hazda men still prefer a WHR significantly lower than average for Hazda women.
Buss concludes by saying that preference for a low WHR is universal, but modulates somewhat based on the average WHR of local women. He also mentions that high-status men care more about WHR than low status men, which seems to fit obviously with the normal Ev. Psych account.
Agreeing with the first paragraph: Never Too Thin is a history of how being thin came to be a symbol of health, status, and virtue. IIRC, it’s a process which started in the fifties, though there were two earlier and less extreme periods of preference for thinness. One in the Victorian, when being thin symbolized innocent youth, and one in the 20s, when it symbolized decadent youth.
I think it’s fairly common for people to claim that a preference for thin women is genetic when it suits their purposes. I don’t think many scientists would actually make this claim, but I think a lot of amateur ev-psych types would.
The fact is that thin-ness as currently defined by Western society is not adaptive; in particular, I would be surprised if it is not the case that a very large proportion of fashion models are amenorrheic. For women, maximum fertility probably occurs at a higher body fat percentage than is generally considered “ideal” by American standards. Similarly, maximum fertility occurs in the mid to late teens, but I’ve definitely seen people argue that the male attraction to younger women causes them to prefer women in their early twenties. This may be true versus, say, women in their thirties, but if reproductive fitness were the whole story, men would really prefer fairly young teenagers, which I don’t believe to be the case.
Since Wrongbot’s whole point is basically, “There is a serious problem with the whole just-so view of evolutionary biology, which has been whittled down and fudged to justify our socially constructed view of what a ’proper sexual relationship is,” that point is well-supported by this claim. The fact that biological preferences clearly exist—like clear skin and a .7 WHR—is only evidence in favor of Wrongbot’s main point.
I dissent from your argument in several areas, Mr. Seldon.
Similarly, maximum fertility occurs in the mid to late teens, but I’ve definitely seen people argue that the male attraction to younger women causes them to prefer women in their early twenties.
No, you are making a factual error here. Female fertility peaks from 22 to 26. Encyclopedia Galactica has more on the subject, as it always does. As one would expect, this is when men find women most attractive for short-term mating.
The fact is that thin-ness as currently defined by Western society is not adaptive; in particular, I would be surprised if it is not the case that a very large proportion of fashion models are amenorrheic.
Certainly, fashion models, are not an optimally fertile type, nor are they approximations of what ev. psychologists have discovered are male preferences for long-term or short-term mates. (Somewhere I read an explanation for this that makes sense—high fashion garments never look so good on real people as they do on the rack. Extremely thin, tall women are the best living approximations of hangers.)
The mistake I think you’re making is that is a good approximation of the present American ideal beauty standard. How do you know our usually anonymous mobile garment hangers are the American beauty standard and not Scarlett Johansson or Beyonce? That is an arbitrary assumption. Are you saying that amateur Ev. Psych types claim that fashion models are a beauty ideal? I can’t speak for all such people, but that seems totally wrong to me. Are you sure you aren’t just beating up on an acceptable target?
Since Wrongbot’s whole point is basically, “There is a serious problem with the whole just-so view of evolutionary biology, which has been whittled down and fudged to justify our socially constructed view of what a ’proper sexual relationship is,” that point is well-supported by this claim. The fact that biological preferences clearly exist—like clear skin and a .7 WHR—is only evidence in favor of Wrongbot’s main point.
What I’ve been trying to get across is that what ev. psychologists actually say is not anything like what Wrongbot is criticizing. You’re saying that amateur ev. Psych people do make such claims, but that seems quite wrong from my experience. If anything, the predominate opinion of the general populace is that beauty standards, relationship styles, even gender norms are totally socially constructed. It seems quite likely that this is much more wrong than imperfect understandings of ev. Psych amateurs. Yet it is not the ignorance of the general populace that you and Wrongbot are criticizing, but rather the rather small population of people who have a much better (but still imperfect) understanding.
Your point about age-based fertility is likely valid. I claim no expertise here; I only know that I’ve read from numerous sources that the ideal time for a woman to have a child is in her mid to late teens, physiologically. This does not necessarily mean her fertility is at its peak.
As regards thinness, I’m going off significant anecdotal experience and social observation, which is no doubt skewed to my own particular demographics. I certainly know a lot of women who aspire to be fashion-model thin, despite its negative implications for their fertility. Eating disorders also speak to this issue. I know a lot of men who have extremely high standards when it comes to the physical fitness of the women they date, even when the men aren’t themselves particularly desirable. Roissy, for example, refers to optimal women having a BMI between 18 and 23, and also claims this preference is genetic. I expect this viewpoint of how thin a woman should look is rather widespread. I would be very surprised if the ideal BMI in terms of fertility were not much closer to 22-27 than it is to 18-23.
the predominate opinion of the general populace is that… relationship styles, even gender norms are totally socially constructed.
I don’t know what general populace you are referring to. In America, I would be absolutely astounded if your average man-or-woman-on-the-street thinks gender norms are purely socially constructed. I would guess the sample of people who’s opinions and writings you are basing the estimate off of look absolutely nothing like the general public.
Wrongbot has a rather difficult task. I think the group of people it’s arguing against are rather difficult to define, as well as disperse. I’ve certainly seen and read a great deal of ev-psych thinking that centers on the idea that men are providers and women rely on them for resources to raise their children. Pretty much all of the “science” cited in the PUA-sphere relies on this assumption, and they didn’t come up with it from nothing. Unfortunately, the view Wrongbot is arguing against is not a clear and formalized theory with an academic discipline built around its explicit defense; it is a general reasoning tendency common among a large but poorly defined group of thinkers.
I have a notion that evolution pulls in two directions so far as men’s attraction to women is concerned—low maintenance for some features, perhaps directly related to reproduction, though I’ve never heard that symmetry correlates with easy birth or healthy children, but high maintenance for other features. Preferring rare but popular physical features is high maintenance in itself. And there are some other aspects of attractiveness which are obviously costly, and that’s presumably the point.
No, body fat percentage doesn’t necessarily say anything about genetic fitness, since bodyfat levels are highly dependent on diet. Show me a tribe that says asymmetrical faces, high waist:hip ratio, or pockmarked skin are attractive female traits. Those are real claims of “objective subjectivity” made by evolutionary psychologists. You seem to be unwilling to address their actual claims.
The main problem I have with this series, is that you sort of make vague criticisms about a “standard account” without being precise and specific about what you think is the correct account.
This study describes a tribe that finds a high waist:hip ratio most attractive. The authors argue that waist:hip ratio signals weight, and that heavier females are more adaptive in environments where obesity is not a problem (like the human EEA). I’m not sure that I buy that argument, but I’m not ready to rule it out either.
This followup study suggests that the methodology was misleading—attractiveness was evaluated from frontal pictures rather than the WHR measurement that is correlated with health, and the reported preferences changed when examining profile pictures.
Thanks for tracking that down. The Hadza still seem to prefer a significantly higher ratio than Americans so, but yes, the effect is much less extreme.
I have a couple methodological problems with both studies, though. The earlier study found a frontal WHR preference around .9 and tested the .4-1.0 range, which may mean that subjects who would have selected a frontal WHR greater than 1.0 had their preference undervalued.
The study on profile WHR only offered choices in the .55-.75 range, which seems problematic if most Hadza prefer WHRs above .8. More importantly, the illustrations used vary profile WHR by adjusting buttock projection and leaving waist-size identical, which makes weight a huge confounding factor.
Drawing strong conclusions from this evidence doesn’t seem possible.
This issue is discussed in some depth in my Ev. Psych. textbook: Evolutionary Psychology: The New Science of the Mind by David Buss. The Hazda women actually have a higher average WHR compared to the global average. Hazda men still prefer a WHR significantly lower than average for Hazda women.
Buss concludes by saying that preference for a low WHR is universal, but modulates somewhat based on the average WHR of local women. He also mentions that high-status men care more about WHR than low status men, which seems to fit obviously with the normal Ev. Psych account.
Which should at least be unsurprising due to anchoring.
Link seems to be broken?
Eep, sorry. Should be working now.
Agreeing with the first paragraph: Never Too Thin is a history of how being thin came to be a symbol of health, status, and virtue. IIRC, it’s a process which started in the fifties, though there were two earlier and less extreme periods of preference for thinness. One in the Victorian, when being thin symbolized innocent youth, and one in the 20s, when it symbolized decadent youth.
I think it’s fairly common for people to claim that a preference for thin women is genetic when it suits their purposes. I don’t think many scientists would actually make this claim, but I think a lot of amateur ev-psych types would.
The fact is that thin-ness as currently defined by Western society is not adaptive; in particular, I would be surprised if it is not the case that a very large proportion of fashion models are amenorrheic. For women, maximum fertility probably occurs at a higher body fat percentage than is generally considered “ideal” by American standards. Similarly, maximum fertility occurs in the mid to late teens, but I’ve definitely seen people argue that the male attraction to younger women causes them to prefer women in their early twenties. This may be true versus, say, women in their thirties, but if reproductive fitness were the whole story, men would really prefer fairly young teenagers, which I don’t believe to be the case.
Since Wrongbot’s whole point is basically, “There is a serious problem with the whole just-so view of evolutionary biology, which has been whittled down and fudged to justify our socially constructed view of what a ’proper sexual relationship is,” that point is well-supported by this claim. The fact that biological preferences clearly exist—like clear skin and a .7 WHR—is only evidence in favor of Wrongbot’s main point.
I dissent from your argument in several areas, Mr. Seldon.
No, you are making a factual error here. Female fertility peaks from 22 to 26. Encyclopedia Galactica has more on the subject, as it always does. As one would expect, this is when men find women most attractive for short-term mating.
Certainly, fashion models, are not an optimally fertile type, nor are they approximations of what ev. psychologists have discovered are male preferences for long-term or short-term mates. (Somewhere I read an explanation for this that makes sense—high fashion garments never look so good on real people as they do on the rack. Extremely thin, tall women are the best living approximations of hangers.)
The mistake I think you’re making is that is a good approximation of the present American ideal beauty standard. How do you know our usually anonymous mobile garment hangers are the American beauty standard and not Scarlett Johansson or Beyonce? That is an arbitrary assumption. Are you saying that amateur Ev. Psych types claim that fashion models are a beauty ideal? I can’t speak for all such people, but that seems totally wrong to me. Are you sure you aren’t just beating up on an acceptable target?
What I’ve been trying to get across is that what ev. psychologists actually say is not anything like what Wrongbot is criticizing. You’re saying that amateur ev. Psych people do make such claims, but that seems quite wrong from my experience. If anything, the predominate opinion of the general populace is that beauty standards, relationship styles, even gender norms are totally socially constructed. It seems quite likely that this is much more wrong than imperfect understandings of ev. Psych amateurs. Yet it is not the ignorance of the general populace that you and Wrongbot are criticizing, but rather the rather small population of people who have a much better (but still imperfect) understanding.
Your point about age-based fertility is likely valid. I claim no expertise here; I only know that I’ve read from numerous sources that the ideal time for a woman to have a child is in her mid to late teens, physiologically. This does not necessarily mean her fertility is at its peak.
As regards thinness, I’m going off significant anecdotal experience and social observation, which is no doubt skewed to my own particular demographics. I certainly know a lot of women who aspire to be fashion-model thin, despite its negative implications for their fertility. Eating disorders also speak to this issue. I know a lot of men who have extremely high standards when it comes to the physical fitness of the women they date, even when the men aren’t themselves particularly desirable. Roissy, for example, refers to optimal women having a BMI between 18 and 23, and also claims this preference is genetic. I expect this viewpoint of how thin a woman should look is rather widespread. I would be very surprised if the ideal BMI in terms of fertility were not much closer to 22-27 than it is to 18-23.
I don’t know what general populace you are referring to. In America, I would be absolutely astounded if your average man-or-woman-on-the-street thinks gender norms are purely socially constructed. I would guess the sample of people who’s opinions and writings you are basing the estimate off of look absolutely nothing like the general public.
Wrongbot has a rather difficult task. I think the group of people it’s arguing against are rather difficult to define, as well as disperse. I’ve certainly seen and read a great deal of ev-psych thinking that centers on the idea that men are providers and women rely on them for resources to raise their children. Pretty much all of the “science” cited in the PUA-sphere relies on this assumption, and they didn’t come up with it from nothing. Unfortunately, the view Wrongbot is arguing against is not a clear and formalized theory with an academic discipline built around its explicit defense; it is a general reasoning tendency common among a large but poorly defined group of thinkers.
FWIW, they’re probably doing this to look good in the eyes of other women, not in the eyes of men, or at least are confused about male response.
Actually, they seem to be defined as Pinker...
I have a notion that evolution pulls in two directions so far as men’s attraction to women is concerned—low maintenance for some features, perhaps directly related to reproduction, though I’ve never heard that symmetry correlates with easy birth or healthy children, but high maintenance for other features. Preferring rare but popular physical features is high maintenance in itself. And there are some other aspects of attractiveness which are obviously costly, and that’s presumably the point.