I dissent from your argument in several areas, Mr. Seldon.
Similarly, maximum fertility occurs in the mid to late teens, but I’ve definitely seen people argue that the male attraction to younger women causes them to prefer women in their early twenties.
No, you are making a factual error here. Female fertility peaks from 22 to 26. Encyclopedia Galactica has more on the subject, as it always does. As one would expect, this is when men find women most attractive for short-term mating.
The fact is that thin-ness as currently defined by Western society is not adaptive; in particular, I would be surprised if it is not the case that a very large proportion of fashion models are amenorrheic.
Certainly, fashion models, are not an optimally fertile type, nor are they approximations of what ev. psychologists have discovered are male preferences for long-term or short-term mates. (Somewhere I read an explanation for this that makes sense—high fashion garments never look so good on real people as they do on the rack. Extremely thin, tall women are the best living approximations of hangers.)
The mistake I think you’re making is that is a good approximation of the present American ideal beauty standard. How do you know our usually anonymous mobile garment hangers are the American beauty standard and not Scarlett Johansson or Beyonce? That is an arbitrary assumption. Are you saying that amateur Ev. Psych types claim that fashion models are a beauty ideal? I can’t speak for all such people, but that seems totally wrong to me. Are you sure you aren’t just beating up on an acceptable target?
Since Wrongbot’s whole point is basically, “There is a serious problem with the whole just-so view of evolutionary biology, which has been whittled down and fudged to justify our socially constructed view of what a ’proper sexual relationship is,” that point is well-supported by this claim. The fact that biological preferences clearly exist—like clear skin and a .7 WHR—is only evidence in favor of Wrongbot’s main point.
What I’ve been trying to get across is that what ev. psychologists actually say is not anything like what Wrongbot is criticizing. You’re saying that amateur ev. Psych people do make such claims, but that seems quite wrong from my experience. If anything, the predominate opinion of the general populace is that beauty standards, relationship styles, even gender norms are totally socially constructed. It seems quite likely that this is much more wrong than imperfect understandings of ev. Psych amateurs. Yet it is not the ignorance of the general populace that you and Wrongbot are criticizing, but rather the rather small population of people who have a much better (but still imperfect) understanding.
Your point about age-based fertility is likely valid. I claim no expertise here; I only know that I’ve read from numerous sources that the ideal time for a woman to have a child is in her mid to late teens, physiologically. This does not necessarily mean her fertility is at its peak.
As regards thinness, I’m going off significant anecdotal experience and social observation, which is no doubt skewed to my own particular demographics. I certainly know a lot of women who aspire to be fashion-model thin, despite its negative implications for their fertility. Eating disorders also speak to this issue. I know a lot of men who have extremely high standards when it comes to the physical fitness of the women they date, even when the men aren’t themselves particularly desirable. Roissy, for example, refers to optimal women having a BMI between 18 and 23, and also claims this preference is genetic. I expect this viewpoint of how thin a woman should look is rather widespread. I would be very surprised if the ideal BMI in terms of fertility were not much closer to 22-27 than it is to 18-23.
the predominate opinion of the general populace is that… relationship styles, even gender norms are totally socially constructed.
I don’t know what general populace you are referring to. In America, I would be absolutely astounded if your average man-or-woman-on-the-street thinks gender norms are purely socially constructed. I would guess the sample of people who’s opinions and writings you are basing the estimate off of look absolutely nothing like the general public.
Wrongbot has a rather difficult task. I think the group of people it’s arguing against are rather difficult to define, as well as disperse. I’ve certainly seen and read a great deal of ev-psych thinking that centers on the idea that men are providers and women rely on them for resources to raise their children. Pretty much all of the “science” cited in the PUA-sphere relies on this assumption, and they didn’t come up with it from nothing. Unfortunately, the view Wrongbot is arguing against is not a clear and formalized theory with an academic discipline built around its explicit defense; it is a general reasoning tendency common among a large but poorly defined group of thinkers.
I dissent from your argument in several areas, Mr. Seldon.
No, you are making a factual error here. Female fertility peaks from 22 to 26. Encyclopedia Galactica has more on the subject, as it always does. As one would expect, this is when men find women most attractive for short-term mating.
Certainly, fashion models, are not an optimally fertile type, nor are they approximations of what ev. psychologists have discovered are male preferences for long-term or short-term mates. (Somewhere I read an explanation for this that makes sense—high fashion garments never look so good on real people as they do on the rack. Extremely thin, tall women are the best living approximations of hangers.)
The mistake I think you’re making is that is a good approximation of the present American ideal beauty standard. How do you know our usually anonymous mobile garment hangers are the American beauty standard and not Scarlett Johansson or Beyonce? That is an arbitrary assumption. Are you saying that amateur Ev. Psych types claim that fashion models are a beauty ideal? I can’t speak for all such people, but that seems totally wrong to me. Are you sure you aren’t just beating up on an acceptable target?
What I’ve been trying to get across is that what ev. psychologists actually say is not anything like what Wrongbot is criticizing. You’re saying that amateur ev. Psych people do make such claims, but that seems quite wrong from my experience. If anything, the predominate opinion of the general populace is that beauty standards, relationship styles, even gender norms are totally socially constructed. It seems quite likely that this is much more wrong than imperfect understandings of ev. Psych amateurs. Yet it is not the ignorance of the general populace that you and Wrongbot are criticizing, but rather the rather small population of people who have a much better (but still imperfect) understanding.
Your point about age-based fertility is likely valid. I claim no expertise here; I only know that I’ve read from numerous sources that the ideal time for a woman to have a child is in her mid to late teens, physiologically. This does not necessarily mean her fertility is at its peak.
As regards thinness, I’m going off significant anecdotal experience and social observation, which is no doubt skewed to my own particular demographics. I certainly know a lot of women who aspire to be fashion-model thin, despite its negative implications for their fertility. Eating disorders also speak to this issue. I know a lot of men who have extremely high standards when it comes to the physical fitness of the women they date, even when the men aren’t themselves particularly desirable. Roissy, for example, refers to optimal women having a BMI between 18 and 23, and also claims this preference is genetic. I expect this viewpoint of how thin a woman should look is rather widespread. I would be very surprised if the ideal BMI in terms of fertility were not much closer to 22-27 than it is to 18-23.
I don’t know what general populace you are referring to. In America, I would be absolutely astounded if your average man-or-woman-on-the-street thinks gender norms are purely socially constructed. I would guess the sample of people who’s opinions and writings you are basing the estimate off of look absolutely nothing like the general public.
Wrongbot has a rather difficult task. I think the group of people it’s arguing against are rather difficult to define, as well as disperse. I’ve certainly seen and read a great deal of ev-psych thinking that centers on the idea that men are providers and women rely on them for resources to raise their children. Pretty much all of the “science” cited in the PUA-sphere relies on this assumption, and they didn’t come up with it from nothing. Unfortunately, the view Wrongbot is arguing against is not a clear and formalized theory with an academic discipline built around its explicit defense; it is a general reasoning tendency common among a large but poorly defined group of thinkers.
FWIW, they’re probably doing this to look good in the eyes of other women, not in the eyes of men, or at least are confused about male response.
Actually, they seem to be defined as Pinker...