Both sides make good points. One side being Zack, and the other side being everyone else. :D
Instead of debating object-level stuff here, everyone talks in metaphors. Which is supposed to be a good way to avoid political mindkilling. Except that mostly everyone knows what the metaphors represent, so I doubt this really works. And it seems to me that rationality requires to look at the specific things. So, do I wish that people stopped using metaphors and addressed the underlying specific topics? Aaah… yes and no. Yes, because it seems to me there is otherwise no way to come to a meaningful conclusion. No, because that would invite other people, encourage people on Twitter to share carefully selected screenshots, and make everyone worry about having parts of their text quoted out of context. So maybe the metaphors actually do something useful by adding extra complexity.
In real life, I’d say: “Ok guys, let’s sit in this room, everyone turn off their recording devices, and let’s talk, with the agreement that what happens in this room stays in this room.” Which is exactly the thing that is difficult to do online. (On the second thought, is it? What about a chat, where only selected people can join, but everyone gets assigned a random nickname, and perhaps the nicknames also reset randomly in the middle of conversation...)
Paul Graham recommends: “Draw a sharp line between your thoughts and your speech. Inside your head, anything is allowed. [...] But, as in a secret society, nothing that happens within the building should be told to outsiders. The first rule of Fight Club is, you do not talk about Fight Club.”
The problem is, how to apply this to an online community, where anything that happens automatically has a written record; and how to allow new members to join the community without making everything that happens there automatically public. (How would you keep the Fight Club secret when people have smartphones?)
real life, I’d say: “Ok guys, let’s sit in this room, everyone turn off their recording devices, and let’s talk, with the agreement that what happens in this room stays in this room.”
The one time I did this with rationalists, the person (Adam Widmer) who organized the event and explicitly set forth the rule you just described, then went on to remember what people had said and bring it up publicly later in order to shake them into changing their behavior to fit his (if you’ll excuse me speaking ill of the dead) spoiled little rich boy desires.
So my advice, based on my experience, and which my life would have been noticably better had someone told me before, is: DON’T do this, and if anyone suggests doing this, stop trusting them and run away
Which is not to say that you are untrustworthy and trying to manipulate people into revealing sensitive information so you can use it to manipulate them; in order for me to confidently reach that conclusion, you’d have to actually attempt to organize such an event, not just casually suggest one on the internet
Well, that sucks. Good point that no matter what the rules are, people can simply break them. The more you think about the details of the rules, the easier you forget that the rules do not become physical law.
Though I’d expect social consequences for breaking such rules to be quite severe. Which again, deters some kinds of people more, and some of them less.
As a semi-outsider, rationalists seem remarkably unlikely to altruistically punish each other for this sort of casual betrayal. (This is a significant part of why I’ve chosen to remain a semi-outsider by only participating online.)
encourage people on Twitter to share carefully selected screenshots
So maybe the metaphors actually do something useful by adding extra complexity.
This sounds like security through obscurity. Just use encryption.
, and make everyone worry about having parts of their text quoted out of context.
One way of dealing with this is offense.
What about a chat, where only selected people can join, but everyone gets assigned a random nickname, and perhaps the nicknames also reset randomly in the middle of conversation...
Sounds a bit like 4chan. Some variations:
1) No names.
2) Participants are randomly selected.
The problem is, how to apply this to an online community, where anything that happens automatically has a written record;
3) Ditch the written record.
4) Have the chat run forever. The names keep changing.
Both sides make good points. One side being Zack, and the other side being everyone else. :D
Instead of debating object-level stuff here, everyone talks in metaphors. Which is supposed to be a good way to avoid political mindkilling. Except that mostly everyone knows what the metaphors represent, so I doubt this really works. And it seems to me that rationality requires to look at the specific things. So, do I wish that people stopped using metaphors and addressed the underlying specific topics? Aaah… yes and no. Yes, because it seems to me there is otherwise no way to come to a meaningful conclusion. No, because that would invite other people, encourage people on Twitter to share carefully selected screenshots, and make everyone worry about having parts of their text quoted out of context. So maybe the metaphors actually do something useful by adding extra complexity.
In real life, I’d say: “Ok guys, let’s sit in this room, everyone turn off their recording devices, and let’s talk, with the agreement that what happens in this room stays in this room.” Which is exactly the thing that is difficult to do online. (On the second thought, is it? What about a chat, where only selected people can join, but everyone gets assigned a random nickname, and perhaps the nicknames also reset randomly in the middle of conversation...)
Paul Graham recommends: “Draw a sharp line between your thoughts and your speech. Inside your head, anything is allowed. [...] But, as in a secret society, nothing that happens within the building should be told to outsiders. The first rule of Fight Club is, you do not talk about Fight Club.”
The problem is, how to apply this to an online community, where anything that happens automatically has a written record; and how to allow new members to join the community without making everything that happens there automatically public. (How would you keep the Fight Club secret when people have smartphones?)
The one time I did this with rationalists, the person (Adam Widmer) who organized the event and explicitly set forth the rule you just described, then went on to remember what people had said and bring it up publicly later in order to shake them into changing their behavior to fit his (if you’ll excuse me speaking ill of the dead) spoiled little rich boy desires.
So my advice, based on my experience, and which my life would have been noticably better had someone told me before, is: DON’T do this, and if anyone suggests doing this, stop trusting them and run away
Which is not to say that you are untrustworthy and trying to manipulate people into revealing sensitive information so you can use it to manipulate them; in order for me to confidently reach that conclusion, you’d have to actually attempt to organize such an event, not just casually suggest one on the internet
Well, that sucks. Good point that no matter what the rules are, people can simply break them. The more you think about the details of the rules, the easier you forget that the rules do not become physical law.
Though I’d expect social consequences for breaking such rules to be quite severe. Which again, deters some kinds of people more, and some of them less.
As a semi-outsider, rationalists seem remarkably unlikely to altruistically punish each other for this sort of casual betrayal. (This is a significant part of why I’ve chosen to remain a semi-outsider by only participating online.)
This sounds like security through obscurity. Just use encryption.
One way of dealing with this is offense.
Sounds a bit like 4chan. Some variations:
1) No names.
2) Participants are randomly selected.
3) Ditch the written record.
4) Have the chat run forever. The names keep changing.