The Snafu Principle, whereby communication is only fully possible between equals, leading to Situation Normal All F***ed Up.
This seems true to me in one sense of “equals” and false in another. It seems true to me that dominating and submitting prohibit real communication. It does not seem true to me that structures of authority (“This is my coffee shop; and so if you want to work here you’ll have to sign a contract with me, and then I’ll be able to stop hiring you later if I don’t want to hire you later”) necessarily prohibit communication, though. I can imagine contexts where free agents voluntarily decide to enter into an authority relationship (e.g., because I freely choose to work at Bob’s coffee shop until such time as it ceases to aid my and/or Bob’s goals), without dominating or submitting, and thereby with the possibility of communication.
Relatedly, folks who are peers can easily enough end up dominating/submitting-to each other, or getting stuck reinforcing lies to each other about how good each others’ poetry is or whatever, instead of communicating.
Do you agree that this is the true bit of the “communication is only possible between equals” claim, or do you have something else in mind?
For anyone just tuning in and wanting to follow what I mean by “dominating and submitting,” I have in mind the kinds of interactions that Keith Johnstone describes in the “status” chapter of “Impro” (text here; excerpt and previous overcoming bias discussion here.)
This is the book that indirectly caused us to use the word “status” so often around here, but I feel the term “status” is a euphemism that brings model-distortions, versus discussing “dominating and submitting.” FWIW, Johnstone in the original passage says it is a euphemism, writing: “I should really talk about dominance and submission, but I’d create a resistance.
Students who will agree readily to raising or lowering their status may object if asked
to ‘dominate’ or ‘submit’.” (Hattip: Divia.)
FWIW, Johnstone in the original passage says it is a euphemism, writing: “I should really talk about dominance and submission, but I’d create a resistance. Students who will agree readily to raising or lowering their status may object if asked to ‘dominate’ or ‘submit’.”
Huh, that is an interesting and possibly quite important update for me (I’m not 100% sure what I’m updating on – this all seems compatible with the dominance vs /prestige distinction which is roughly my current status model. But, seems at least historically important if Impro had originally described it that way)
This seems true to me in one sense of “equals” and false in another. It seems true to me that dominating and submitting prohibit real communication. It does not seem true to me that structures of authority (“This is my coffee shop; and so if you want to work here you’ll have to sign a contract with me, and then I’ll be able to stop hiring you later if I don’t want to hire you later”) necessarily prohibit communication, though. I can imagine contexts where free agents voluntarily decide to enter into an authority relationship (e.g., because I freely choose to work at Bob’s coffee shop until such time as it ceases to aid my and/or Bob’s goals), without dominating or submitting, and thereby with the possibility of communication.
Relatedly, folks who are peers can easily enough end up dominating/submitting-to each other, or getting stuck reinforcing lies to each other about how good each others’ poetry is or whatever, instead of communicating.
Do you agree that this is the true bit of the “communication is only possible between equals” claim, or do you have something else in mind?
For anyone just tuning in and wanting to follow what I mean by “dominating and submitting,” I have in mind the kinds of interactions that Keith Johnstone describes in the “status” chapter of “Impro” (text here; excerpt and previous overcoming bias discussion here.)
This is the book that indirectly caused us to use the word “status” so often around here, but I feel the term “status” is a euphemism that brings model-distortions, versus discussing “dominating and submitting.” FWIW, Johnstone in the original passage says it is a euphemism, writing: “I should really talk about dominance and submission, but I’d create a resistance. Students who will agree readily to raising or lowering their status may object if asked to ‘dominate’ or ‘submit’.” (Hattip: Divia.)
Huh, that is an interesting and possibly quite important update for me (I’m not 100% sure what I’m updating on – this all seems compatible with the dominance vs /prestige distinction which is roughly my current status model. But, seems at least historically important if Impro had originally described it that way)
Yes, I believe that is mostly right. I would like to get better gears on this, though.