There’s this concept I keep coming around to around confidentiality and shooting the messenger, which I have not really been able to articulate well.
There’s a lot of circumstances where I want to know a piece of information someone else knows. There’s good reasons they have not to tell me, for instance if the straightforward, obvious thing for me to do with that information is obviously against their interests. And yet there’s an outcome better for me and either better for them or the same for them, if they tell me and I don’t use it against them.
(Consider a job interview where they ask your salary expectations and you ask what the role might pay. If they decide they weren’t going to hire you, it’d be nice to know what they actually would have paid for the right candidate, so you can negotiate better with the next company. Consider trying to figure out how accurate your criminal investigation system is by asking, on their way out of the trial after the verdict, “hey did you actually do it or not?” Consider asking a romantic partner “hey, is there anything you’re unhappy about in our relationship?” It’s very easy to be the kind of person where, if they tell you a real flaw, you take it as an insult- but then they stop answering that question honestly!)
There’s a great Glowfic line with Feanor being the kind of person you can tell things to, where he won’t make you worse off for having told him, that sticks with me but not in a way I can find the quote. :(
It’s really important to get information in a way that doesn’t shoot the messenger. If you fail, you stop getting messages.
How much or how little does this cross over with the espionage-coded topic of Elicitation? I understand that you would prefer if these dynamics could be more transparent, but in the absence of that, what is the alternative?
Not that much crossover with Elicitation. I think of Elicitation as one of several useful tools for the normal sequence of somewhat adversarial information exchange. It’s fine! I’ve used it there and been okay with it. But ideally I’d sidestep that entirely.
Also, I enjoy the adversarial version recreationaly. I like playing Blood On The Clocktower, LARPs with secret enemies, poker, etc. For real projects I prefer being able to cooperate more, and I really dislike it when I wind up accidentally in the wrong mode, either me being adversarial and the other people aren’t or me being open and the other people aren’t.
In the absence of the kind of structured transparency I’m gesturing at, play like you’re playing to win. Keep track of who is telling the truth, mark what statements you can verify and what you can’t, make notes of who agrees with each other’s stories. Make positive EV bets on what the ground truth is (or what other people will think the truth is) and when all else fails play to your outs.
(That last paragraph is a pile of sazen and jargon, I don’t expect it’s very clear. I wanted to write this note because I’m not trying to score points via confusion and want to point out to any readers it’s very reasonable to be confused by that paragraph.)
The main issue is, theories about how to run job interviews are developed in collaboration between businesses who need to hire people, theories on how to respond to court questions are developed in collaboration between gang members, etc.. While a business might not be disincentized from letting the non-hired employees better at negotiating, it is incentivized to teach other businesses ways of making their non-hired employees worse at negotiating.
There’s this concept I keep coming around to around confidentiality and shooting the messenger, which I have not really been able to articulate well.
There’s a lot of circumstances where I want to know a piece of information someone else knows. There’s good reasons they have not to tell me, for instance if the straightforward, obvious thing for me to do with that information is obviously against their interests. And yet there’s an outcome better for me and either better for them or the same for them, if they tell me and I don’t use it against them.
(Consider a job interview where they ask your salary expectations and you ask what the role might pay. If they decide they weren’t going to hire you, it’d be nice to know what they actually would have paid for the right candidate, so you can negotiate better with the next company. Consider trying to figure out how accurate your criminal investigation system is by asking, on their way out of the trial after the verdict, “hey did you actually do it or not?” Consider asking a romantic partner “hey, is there anything you’re unhappy about in our relationship?” It’s very easy to be the kind of person where, if they tell you a real flaw, you take it as an insult- but then they stop answering that question honestly!)
There’s a great Glowfic line with Feanor being the kind of person you can tell things to, where he won’t make you worse off for having told him, that sticks with me but not in a way I can find the quote. :(
It’s really important to get information in a way that doesn’t shoot the messenger. If you fail, you stop getting messages.
How much or how little does this cross over with the espionage-coded topic of Elicitation? I understand that you would prefer if these dynamics could be more transparent, but in the absence of that, what is the alternative?
Not that much crossover with Elicitation. I think of Elicitation as one of several useful tools for the normal sequence of somewhat adversarial information exchange. It’s fine! I’ve used it there and been okay with it. But ideally I’d sidestep that entirely.
Also, I enjoy the adversarial version recreationaly. I like playing Blood On The Clocktower, LARPs with secret enemies, poker, etc. For real projects I prefer being able to cooperate more, and I really dislike it when I wind up accidentally in the wrong mode, either me being adversarial and the other people aren’t or me being open and the other people aren’t.
In the absence of the kind of structured transparency I’m gesturing at, play like you’re playing to win. Keep track of who is telling the truth, mark what statements you can verify and what you can’t, make notes of who agrees with each other’s stories. Make positive EV bets on what the ground truth is (or what other people will think the truth is) and when all else fails play to your outs.
(That last paragraph is a pile of sazen and jargon, I don’t expect it’s very clear. I wanted to write this note because I’m not trying to score points via confusion and want to point out to any readers it’s very reasonable to be confused by that paragraph.)
The main issue is, theories about how to run job interviews are developed in collaboration between businesses who need to hire people, theories on how to respond to court questions are developed in collaboration between gang members, etc.. While a business might not be disincentized from letting the non-hired employees better at negotiating, it is incentivized to teach other businesses ways of making their non-hired employees worse at negotiating.
Reminds me loosely of The Honest Broker.