Were I myself a part of Luminosiverse I would, it would seem, look down upon Bella with the same sense of moral superiority that she has for ‘carnivores’.
Are you actually saying that according to your values the life of a sapient human is worth less then the life of an endangered wolf?
My values, transposed into the position of a vampire in Luminosiverse, yes. I would be a predator, choosing among prey of two species that are not my own. There isn’t anything magical about humanity and there is real value in maintaining a whole species. Particularly something as awesome as wolves. More so in a universe in which the species has magical significance.
As I mentioned, I’d eat someone’s pet cat instead. But if it came down to a pure choice between eating wolves to extinction or eating a human then vampire wedrifid would eat a human.
Ultimately, if you bite the bullet on “Shut up and Multiply” then it turns out that you have to Shut up and Divide as well. A single human just isn’t worth six billion times as much as the wolf species. In Bella’s case she isn’t doing a whole species worth of damage in one feed (which is, of course, hard to imagine) so the multiplicative factor isn’t quite so large. But even so, her choice isn’t a good one. Particularly given the ridiculous number of alternatives she had available.
Bella also can’t be expected to Shut up and Multiply. If she follows in the author’s footsteps she does not even implement consequentialism. But Bella’s reasons for behaving unethically are not important.
It may be worth pointing out that it is only the Scandinavian wolf population that is endangered, not the species as a whole; there’s a lot of wolves in Russia. But still, given that the declared policy of the Norwegian state and, presumably, people (disregarding the dang farmers, who ought to get with the gains-from-specialisation program already and stop trying to farm in subarctic conditions) is that we want to preserve a wolf population, it’s rather rude, as well as illegal, for a guest in the country to eat one. Not to mention unrealistic, in that finding a wolf anywhere near a fjord is really quite unlikely.
If it came to a choice between a wolf and a human, I would definitely eat the wolf; but that’s not the choice Bella faces. Let her find a moose.
On another subject, I’m not quite sure about the ecological impact of ‘vegetarian’ vampires. They are clearly apex predators, and they are pure carnivores. There are not that many moose in any given area, much less killer whales; you would think they’d hunt out the local populations pretty quickly, and someone would notice. I suppose they can eat rabbits and lemmings, which nobody would miss, but if Bella can drain the blood of a killer whale in one sitting (!), how many rabbits does she need in a day? Something is weird about the energy flows in the Luminosiverse.
I apologize for the imaginary depredation of endangered species. I just googled “Norwegian wildlife” and picked something. It became a minor conversation topic later so I don’t want to edit it out. In fairness, Bella has no reason to know the conservation status of the Scandinavian population of any megafauna, and Edward is trying desperately at that point to get her to eat and knows carnivores to be more appealing than herbivores, so in the (perhaps wildly unlikely) event that he smelled a wolf near a fjord, he would encourage her to eat it and she’d have no reason to reject it because it has few friends.
It may be worth pointing out that it is only the Scandinavian wolf population that is endangered, not the species as a whole
Good point.
Something is weird about the energy flows in the Luminosiverse.
It has vampires that look ‘graceful’ while at the same time accelerating at inhuman rates despite near-human mass. Vampires have vulnerabilities to other vampires and to wolves yet resistance to other physical attacks that is in no way proportionate with respect to physics. Yes, it’s best just to consider the energy flows ‘magic’ and leave it that.
My values, transposed into the position of a vampire in Luminosiverse, yes. I would be a predator, choosing among prey of two species that are not my own.
Wait, why should your values change just because you’re suddenly immortal? Or is it because of the magical value of wolves in the luminosiverse? This doesn’t make sense.
I didn’t think any change would be enough. Isn’t morality subjunctively objective? What doesn’t make sense is that you look like you’re saying wedrifid_vampire’s values are good according to wedrifid_now’s values. If I were expecting to be “turned” I would do everything I can to maintain my current values after the event, because to do otherwise would be against my current values.
And my current values say that if it’s a human or an endangered wolf, I’d save the human.
I didn’t think any change would be enough. Isn’t morality subjunctively objective?
That doesn’t preclude self reference. (sp. subjectively)
And my current values say that if it’s a human or an endangered wolf, I’d save the human.
Does this apply in the extreme case? That is, species vs individual?
If I had a single use switch that could be used to either save the wolf species or save an individual human I’d flick it to ‘wolf species’. The only reason I would even consider the other option is because humans lose their grip on perspective when it comes to morality—it is sometimes necessary to signal to them.
Unless you can provide an objective reason why your values should prefer eating the wolf, I will assume it’s because you have a rule saying that you should treat members of your own species specially.
Once you become a vampire, the extensional interpretation of this rule changes. It now says that you should treat vampires specially.
Although I don’t, my best guess is that he puts a value on biodiversity.
You don’t put any value on biodiversity? As in, if you had the choice of destroying all biodiversity in the world that isn’t directly necessary to human survival for benefit to you of one cent you would take it? That is cold.
I think his values change because he changed from being a human into being a vampire: by many measures of species, vampires are a separate species from humans.
I almost commented on that the first time. It struck me as a red herring. Sapience is not even a universal feature of humanity. There are animals that I have known who are ‘possessing of more wisdom and discernment’ than the least among the humans I have known. Sapience is not the greatest distinguishing feature of humanity and I seriously doubt that you value humans in proportion to their degree of ‘sapience’ in practice.
BTW, what do you find so magical about maintaining a whole species?
I like wolves. I like novelty. No other reason is needed.
Out of curiousity, could you give some examples and (ideally highly detailed) evidence? I’m curious to know, particularly how you managed to measure it.
Are you actually saying that according to your values the life of a sapient human is worth less then the life of an endangered wolf?
My values, transposed into the position of a vampire in Luminosiverse, yes. I would be a predator, choosing among prey of two species that are not my own. There isn’t anything magical about humanity and there is real value in maintaining a whole species. Particularly something as awesome as wolves. More so in a universe in which the species has magical significance.
As I mentioned, I’d eat someone’s pet cat instead. But if it came down to a pure choice between eating wolves to extinction or eating a human then vampire wedrifid would eat a human.
Ultimately, if you bite the bullet on “Shut up and Multiply” then it turns out that you have to Shut up and Divide as well. A single human just isn’t worth six billion times as much as the wolf species. In Bella’s case she isn’t doing a whole species worth of damage in one feed (which is, of course, hard to imagine) so the multiplicative factor isn’t quite so large. But even so, her choice isn’t a good one. Particularly given the ridiculous number of alternatives she had available.
Bella also can’t be expected to Shut up and Multiply. If she follows in the author’s footsteps she does not even implement consequentialism. But Bella’s reasons for behaving unethically are not important.
It may be worth pointing out that it is only the Scandinavian wolf population that is endangered, not the species as a whole; there’s a lot of wolves in Russia. But still, given that the declared policy of the Norwegian state and, presumably, people (disregarding the dang farmers, who ought to get with the gains-from-specialisation program already and stop trying to farm in subarctic conditions) is that we want to preserve a wolf population, it’s rather rude, as well as illegal, for a guest in the country to eat one. Not to mention unrealistic, in that finding a wolf anywhere near a fjord is really quite unlikely.
If it came to a choice between a wolf and a human, I would definitely eat the wolf; but that’s not the choice Bella faces. Let her find a moose.
On another subject, I’m not quite sure about the ecological impact of ‘vegetarian’ vampires. They are clearly apex predators, and they are pure carnivores. There are not that many moose in any given area, much less killer whales; you would think they’d hunt out the local populations pretty quickly, and someone would notice. I suppose they can eat rabbits and lemmings, which nobody would miss, but if Bella can drain the blood of a killer whale in one sitting (!), how many rabbits does she need in a day? Something is weird about the energy flows in the Luminosiverse.
I apologize for the imaginary depredation of endangered species. I just googled “Norwegian wildlife” and picked something. It became a minor conversation topic later so I don’t want to edit it out. In fairness, Bella has no reason to know the conservation status of the Scandinavian population of any megafauna, and Edward is trying desperately at that point to get her to eat and knows carnivores to be more appealing than herbivores, so in the (perhaps wildly unlikely) event that he smelled a wolf near a fjord, he would encourage her to eat it and she’d have no reason to reject it because it has few friends.
Good point.
It has vampires that look ‘graceful’ while at the same time accelerating at inhuman rates despite near-human mass. Vampires have vulnerabilities to other vampires and to wolves yet resistance to other physical attacks that is in no way proportionate with respect to physics. Yes, it’s best just to consider the energy flows ‘magic’ and leave it that.
Wait, why should your values change just because you’re suddenly immortal? Or is it because of the magical value of wolves in the luminosiverse? This doesn’t make sense.
Immortality is not the only change.
That plays somewhat of a part.
Sense? What is this ‘sense’ and how does it relate to human values? :P
I didn’t think any change would be enough. Isn’t morality subjunctively objective? What doesn’t make sense is that you look like you’re saying wedrifid_vampire’s values are good according to wedrifid_now’s values. If I were expecting to be “turned” I would do everything I can to maintain my current values after the event, because to do otherwise would be against my current values.
And my current values say that if it’s a human or an endangered wolf, I’d save the human.
That doesn’t preclude self reference. (sp. subjectively)
Does this apply in the extreme case? That is, species vs individual?
If I had a single use switch that could be used to either save the wolf species or save an individual human I’d flick it to ‘wolf species’. The only reason I would even consider the other option is because humans lose their grip on perspective when it comes to morality—it is sometimes necessary to signal to them.
Unless you can provide an objective reason why your values should prefer eating the wolf, I will assume it’s because you have a rule saying that you should treat members of your own species specially.
Once you become a vampire, the extensional interpretation of this rule changes. It now says that you should treat vampires specially.
I place value on sapience/sentience/self-awareness whatever you want to call it.
Although I don’t, my best guess is that he puts a value on biodiversity.
You don’t put any value on biodiversity? As in, if you had the choice of destroying all biodiversity in the world that isn’t directly necessary to human survival for benefit to you of one cent you would take it? That is cold.
I think his values change because he changed from being a human into being a vampire: by many measures of species, vampires are a separate species from humans.
Yes there is. Humans are sapient.
BTW, what do you find so magical about maintaining a whole species?
I almost commented on that the first time. It struck me as a red herring. Sapience is not even a universal feature of humanity. There are animals that I have known who are ‘possessing of more wisdom and discernment’ than the least among the humans I have known. Sapience is not the greatest distinguishing feature of humanity and I seriously doubt that you value humans in proportion to their degree of ‘sapience’ in practice.
I like wolves. I like novelty. No other reason is needed.
Out of curiousity, could you give some examples and (ideally highly detailed) evidence? I’m curious to know, particularly how you managed to measure it.
Having been a human seems to be a strong argument in favour of unfairly privileging them over other species, even endangered.