Certainly this type of level 4 person exists. But it feels like an additional claim, beyond the simulacrum model, to argue that all (or most?) level 4 people have this mindset. (I’m not arguing whether this claim is true or false, just it feels unnatural to me to group it in with the model)
It feels much simpler to define level 4 as “willing to lie about level 3”, full stop. And then any additional considerations about 4-type-people are additional claims, outside the model (though perhaps derived from it)
I think this captures one of my issues with the original simulacra levels post. It feels like there’s an aesthetic bias going on in a lot of these posts where truth-oriented rationalists are ascribing all sorts of positive attributes to the truth-oriented levels, and negative attributes to the non-truth oriented levels.
So the more elegant model, to me, looks less like levels 1-4, and more like a 2x2 grid, where there is physical reality, social reality, and the propensity to lie/manipulate beliefs about either of them.
This gets at one of the other things I’ve been uncomfortable with the model—it’s conflating being able to see any given level with being unable to see the other levels.
For instance, I know people who basically aren’t tracking reality at all, they’re just tracking tribal affiliations. when they talk. Meanwhile, I know people who are intimately aware of reality in their minds, INCLUDING the tribal affiliations they’re signaling, and take both into account when talking.
This implies then that rather than a 2x2, where you’re either a liar or a truthteller along two separate axes, there’s actually four separate skills.
The ability to track the truth of object-level reality, and communicate it.
The ability to lie about object-level reality
The ability to track the truth of social reality, and signal it.
The ability to create dishonest signals about social reality.
I can think of a few people who are barely able to keep track of the truth, but are great at lying about the truth to get object-level benefit. However, I think this is relatively rare, and your 2x2 may be more elegant.
Edit:
The final things that’s going on here is the conflation of: Being able to see the level, with Being able to play at the level, with Choosing to play at the level.
There are people who can see the social reality being manipulated, but couldn’t manipulate it themselves. There are people who can are able to see other’s tracking the truth, and who can play at the level of finding and communicating the truth, but choose not to. There are people who can see social reality being manipulated, and can play at that level if they need to, but choose to stay at the level of communicating the truth if they can.
I do think Zvi’s post here does a good job of breaking down what it looks like for people to have different relationships with different levels. (He may not have quite broken down the “able to see a level” and “ability/propensity for interacting on that level” aspect, but it feels like a natural extension of the post)
I think this captures one of my issues with the original simulacra levels post. It feels like there’s an aesthetic bias going on in a lot of these posts where truth-oriented rationalists are ascribing all sorts of positive attributes to the truth-oriented levels, and negative attributes to the non-truth oriented levels.
This gets at one of the other things I’ve been uncomfortable with the model—it’s conflating being able to see any given level with being unable to see the other levels.
For instance, I know people who basically aren’t tracking reality at all, they’re just tracking tribal affiliations. when they talk. Meanwhile, I know people who are intimately aware of reality in their minds, INCLUDING the tribal affiliations they’re signaling, and take both into account when talking.
This implies then that rather than a 2x2, where you’re either a liar or a truthteller along two separate axes, there’s actually four separate skills.
The ability to track the truth of object-level reality, and communicate it.
The ability to lie about object-level reality
The ability to track the truth of social reality, and signal it.
The ability to create dishonest signals about social reality.
I can think of a few people who are barely able to keep track of the truth, but are great at lying about the truth to get object-level benefit. However, I think this is relatively rare, and your 2x2 may be more elegant.
Edit:
The final things that’s going on here is the conflation of: Being able to see the level, with Being able to play at the level, with Choosing to play at the level.
There are people who can see the social reality being manipulated, but couldn’t manipulate it themselves. There are people who can are able to see other’s tracking the truth, and who can play at the level of finding and communicating the truth, but choose not to. There are people who can see social reality being manipulated, and can play at that level if they need to, but choose to stay at the level of communicating the truth if they can.
Nod.
I do think Zvi’s post here does a good job of breaking down what it looks like for people to have different relationships with different levels. (He may not have quite broken down the “able to see a level” and “ability/propensity for interacting on that level” aspect, but it feels like a natural extension of the post)
Agreed. I like the nuance that Zev has added to the conversation with this post.