I second the point about physical touch being important, and add: in my experience what you’re going for when flirting isn’t “ambiguous signal” but “plausible deniability”. The level of ambiguity is to be minimized, subject to the constraint that plausible deniability is maintained—ambiguity is an unfortunate side-effect, not something you’re aiming to modulate directly. Why you want plausible deniability: If the person doesn’t respond, or responds in the negative, you want to be able to back off without embarrassment to either party and pretend nothing happened/you were just being friendly/etc. You want to send a signal that is clear enough the other person will pick up on it, but can plausibly claim not to have done so if asked, so you’re not backing them into a corner socially where they have to give you a definite yes/no. Similar to the advice not to flirt in an elevator or other enclosed space the person you’re flirting with can’t easily leave, except the “enclosed space” is the space of possible social responses.
Once you’ve done a few things they ought to have picked up on, and no negative and some seemingly positive interaction has occurred afterwards (physical proximity has increased, verbally things seem to be going well, they’re smiling… if they’ve picked up your attempts at signaling and would like it to stop typically none of that will happen) you can try a physical touch. Something small and nonsexual. Particularly if you’re dealing with a new person or a friend you have never touched before, this usually doesn’t happen by accident—and you can do it in a way that is definitely a deliberate choice on your part, but still plausibly deniable/something both of you can walk away from as a signal of sexual interest. If you get a touch back soon after, you’re good to go (by which I mean, continue escalating in a way that is no longer very plausibly deniable), if you don’t, either the person is socially unskilled, or you’ve misread the situation, but in any case it’s their turn.
Once you’ve done a few things they ought to have picked up on, and no negative and some seemingly positive interaction has occurred afterwards...
One possibility in my hypothesis space here is that there usually isn’t a mutual dance of plausibly-deniable signals, but instead one person sending progressively less deniable signals and the other person just not responding negatively (but not otherwise sending signals themselves).
I imagine that can happen for a while, but if I’m getting nothing back, I stop once I’m pretty sure they should have noticed what I’m doing. Silence in response to a received message, is a form of response, and not one that indicates “keep getting progressively less subtle please”.
If that is the wrong move (the person is interested in me continuing), they will let me know once I back off.
Another thought: You refer to this as a dance, and one model of what’s happening when one flirts is “demonstrate social skill/difficult-to-fake signal of intelligence by calibrating levels of ambiguity and successfully modeling the other person’s mind --> this is attractive --> get date”, in the same way that dancing successfully in an actual dance can be “demonstrate physical skill/difficult-to-fake signal of health --> this is attractive --> get date”. And I’m sure that happens sometimes, and for some people, but my model of flirting does not involve “demonstrate social skill/intelligence --> get date”. For me, flirting solves a different problem, which is “communicate that you like someone (in the sense one likes people one might like to date), and have them communicate back that they like you, without either of you risking much embarrassment or social awkwardness if it’s not mutual or for any other reason a date can’t happen right now”.
Depending on what you’re trying to do by flirting (demonstrate social skill vs. give someone you’re attracted to a low-pressure way to tell you whether they like you back) the approach may be different. Although, even the latter can be a tricky thing to do and ability to do it successfully demonstrates a useful skill.
I think most people who flirt are like, not super socially skilled around people they’re attracted to, and “try to get a sense of whether it’s mutual in a low-risk way” is the more important problem that flirting solves for them. But maybe that’s just me typical-minding :).
Also: the higher the number of spectators, the more you have to be very careful about plausible deniability, because you have to take into consideration what everyone is going to think, and the level of social awkwardness involved in a fumble or a rejection is higher. I’ve flirted with a few women before, but it only lasts more than a few seconds if the woman is flirting back, and I have always done it 1:1 rather than with a group of onlookers. And whenever I’ve noticed someone who might be flirting with me, it has likewise been in a 1:1 situation, at least initially. So it doesn’t surprise me that you haven’t noticed others doing this. Anything done in front of a group has to be so unclear to onlookers that most people would miss it, something like an inside joke or reference to a past conversation.
What is this context in which you are hanging out 1:1 with a woman and it’s not already explicitly a date? (I mean, that of course does happen sometimes, but at least for me it’s not particularly common, so I’m wondering what the contexts were when this actually happened to you.)
Um… well, first off, flirting doesn’t have to happen when you’re hanging out. It can start with something as simple as a compliment to a stranger. Start from the premise that people like to hear positive messages about themselves without any strings attached, and hand them out like candy (but recognizing that taking candy from strangers is something some people would prefer not to do for obvious reasons, so accept whatever response you get to what is offered) - some people will respond back, others won’t, but no harm will be done. I am an introvert so I don’t do this often, but striking up conversations with new people at random is a thing I can force myself to do, and it rarely goes as poorly as one might fear.
But also, my friend-group is mixed, more women than men, and typically it’s people I’ve met one at a time over the years, less of a “friend group” than “a number of people who are my friends”- so I have lots of 1:1 time with female friends. In terms of flirting with those friends, well, they’re friends, so that almost never happens—but almost never is not never. Three times that I can recall off the top of my head, it turned out that one of my friends was attracted to me, and I learned that either because she explicitly said so (in one case, we were teenagers and both clueless about how to flirt, her idea was to follow me around everywhere, and from my perspective I just didn’t know that was a thing that I should notice) or because of some flirting (two cases). When I was younger and much, much more awkward, there were innumerable instances where I was attracted to a female friend and didn’t say anything because from young-me’s perspective of course not that’s insane and I’m lucky this amazing person even wants to be my friend and allow me to continue to be in her presence. There was once when I did say something to a good friend and it wasn’t reciprocated, we’re still close friends, but that wasn’t flirting so much as “we’ve just met had lunch because you suggested it, and I’m feeling some attraction—you? Nope? Ok then, I still think you’re awesome and we should be friends”. There have also been a couple instances where I’ve met someone at an activity or through other friends or at work, hinted at an attraction, she’d hinted back, we’d done something low-stakes like going for a walk together or having a coffee, but it wasn’t an official date or anything, and there was some attempted flirting with mixed success in that context.
What I’m picturing if I was back on the dating market (I’m with a good partner currently, hopefully in perpetuity) is, if I met a woman outside of a dating app who I’d like to date or add to my list of woman friends, depending on how she feels (I tend not to date people just for the hotness, they’ve got to be someone I could be friends with too), we’d probably do something low-stakes 1:1 that wasn’t officially a date or not a date, and depending on how that went, either become friends, go on dates, or part ways. And in the initial figuring out how things were going to go, there would likely be some flirting. At least, I expect that’s how it’d go.
I second the point about physical touch being important, and add: in my experience what you’re going for when flirting isn’t “ambiguous signal” but “plausible deniability”. The level of ambiguity is to be minimized, subject to the constraint that plausible deniability is maintained—ambiguity is an unfortunate side-effect, not something you’re aiming to modulate directly. Why you want plausible deniability: If the person doesn’t respond, or responds in the negative, you want to be able to back off without embarrassment to either party and pretend nothing happened/you were just being friendly/etc. You want to send a signal that is clear enough the other person will pick up on it, but can plausibly claim not to have done so if asked, so you’re not backing them into a corner socially where they have to give you a definite yes/no. Similar to the advice not to flirt in an elevator or other enclosed space the person you’re flirting with can’t easily leave, except the “enclosed space” is the space of possible social responses.
Once you’ve done a few things they ought to have picked up on, and no negative and some seemingly positive interaction has occurred afterwards (physical proximity has increased, verbally things seem to be going well, they’re smiling… if they’ve picked up your attempts at signaling and would like it to stop typically none of that will happen) you can try a physical touch. Something small and nonsexual. Particularly if you’re dealing with a new person or a friend you have never touched before, this usually doesn’t happen by accident—and you can do it in a way that is definitely a deliberate choice on your part, but still plausibly deniable/something both of you can walk away from as a signal of sexual interest. If you get a touch back soon after, you’re good to go (by which I mean, continue escalating in a way that is no longer very plausibly deniable), if you don’t, either the person is socially unskilled, or you’ve misread the situation, but in any case it’s their turn.
One possibility in my hypothesis space here is that there usually isn’t a mutual dance of plausibly-deniable signals, but instead one person sending progressively less deniable signals and the other person just not responding negatively (but not otherwise sending signals themselves).
I imagine that can happen for a while, but if I’m getting nothing back, I stop once I’m pretty sure they should have noticed what I’m doing. Silence in response to a received message, is a form of response, and not one that indicates “keep getting progressively less subtle please”.
If that is the wrong move (the person is interested in me continuing), they will let me know once I back off.
Another thought: You refer to this as a dance, and one model of what’s happening when one flirts is “demonstrate social skill/difficult-to-fake signal of intelligence by calibrating levels of ambiguity and successfully modeling the other person’s mind --> this is attractive --> get date”, in the same way that dancing successfully in an actual dance can be “demonstrate physical skill/difficult-to-fake signal of health --> this is attractive --> get date”. And I’m sure that happens sometimes, and for some people, but my model of flirting does not involve “demonstrate social skill/intelligence --> get date”. For me, flirting solves a different problem, which is “communicate that you like someone (in the sense one likes people one might like to date), and have them communicate back that they like you, without either of you risking much embarrassment or social awkwardness if it’s not mutual or for any other reason a date can’t happen right now”.
Depending on what you’re trying to do by flirting (demonstrate social skill vs. give someone you’re attracted to a low-pressure way to tell you whether they like you back) the approach may be different. Although, even the latter can be a tricky thing to do and ability to do it successfully demonstrates a useful skill.
I think most people who flirt are like, not super socially skilled around people they’re attracted to, and “try to get a sense of whether it’s mutual in a low-risk way” is the more important problem that flirting solves for them. But maybe that’s just me typical-minding :).
Also: the higher the number of spectators, the more you have to be very careful about plausible deniability, because you have to take into consideration what everyone is going to think, and the level of social awkwardness involved in a fumble or a rejection is higher. I’ve flirted with a few women before, but it only lasts more than a few seconds if the woman is flirting back, and I have always done it 1:1 rather than with a group of onlookers. And whenever I’ve noticed someone who might be flirting with me, it has likewise been in a 1:1 situation, at least initially. So it doesn’t surprise me that you haven’t noticed others doing this. Anything done in front of a group has to be so unclear to onlookers that most people would miss it, something like an inside joke or reference to a past conversation.
What is this context in which you are hanging out 1:1 with a woman and it’s not already explicitly a date? (I mean, that of course does happen sometimes, but at least for me it’s not particularly common, so I’m wondering what the contexts were when this actually happened to you.)
The classic is at a party where conversations of different sizes are regularly starting and stopping.
Um… well, first off, flirting doesn’t have to happen when you’re hanging out. It can start with something as simple as a compliment to a stranger. Start from the premise that people like to hear positive messages about themselves without any strings attached, and hand them out like candy (but recognizing that taking candy from strangers is something some people would prefer not to do for obvious reasons, so accept whatever response you get to what is offered) - some people will respond back, others won’t, but no harm will be done. I am an introvert so I don’t do this often, but striking up conversations with new people at random is a thing I can force myself to do, and it rarely goes as poorly as one might fear.
But also, my friend-group is mixed, more women than men, and typically it’s people I’ve met one at a time over the years, less of a “friend group” than “a number of people who are my friends”- so I have lots of 1:1 time with female friends. In terms of flirting with those friends, well, they’re friends, so that almost never happens—but almost never is not never. Three times that I can recall off the top of my head, it turned out that one of my friends was attracted to me, and I learned that either because she explicitly said so (in one case, we were teenagers and both clueless about how to flirt, her idea was to follow me around everywhere, and from my perspective I just didn’t know that was a thing that I should notice) or because of some flirting (two cases). When I was younger and much, much more awkward, there were innumerable instances where I was attracted to a female friend and didn’t say anything because from young-me’s perspective of course not that’s insane and I’m lucky this amazing person even wants to be my friend and allow me to continue to be in her presence. There was once when I did say something to a good friend and it wasn’t reciprocated, we’re still close friends, but that wasn’t flirting so much as “we’ve just
methad lunch because you suggested it, and I’m feeling some attraction—you? Nope? Ok then, I still think you’re awesome and we should be friends”. There have also been a couple instances where I’ve met someone at an activity or through other friends or at work, hinted at an attraction, she’d hinted back, we’d done something low-stakes like going for a walk together or having a coffee, but it wasn’t an official date or anything, and there was some attempted flirting with mixed success in that context.What I’m picturing if I was back on the dating market (I’m with a good partner currently, hopefully in perpetuity) is, if I met a woman outside of a dating app who I’d like to date or add to my list of woman friends, depending on how she feels (I tend not to date people just for the hotness, they’ve got to be someone I could be friends with too), we’d probably do something low-stakes 1:1 that wasn’t officially a date or not a date, and depending on how that went, either become friends, go on dates, or part ways. And in the initial figuring out how things were going to go, there would likely be some flirting. At least, I expect that’s how it’d go.