and a big part of why firefighters, soldiers, doctors, etc. are considered more attractive (than the same person without the role), even though an aspect of their sacrifice is decreased availability to their mates.
That is a nice sounding story that is no doubt handy to illustrate a principle. But I basically don’t buy it at all. Those roles are highly valued because they are high in status, come with power and are an established part of the authority system of the culture. Perceived willingness to sacrifice for your principles is in this case definitely not a (positive) contributing factor to the attractiveness of those high status roles.
Those roles are highly valued because they are high in status, come with power and are an established part of the authority system of the culture.
Are you kidding? What actual power does a firefighter or soldier have, at the bottom rung of the power structure? How about an EMT or a rescue um, tech? (What do they call people who rescue people?) What about lifeguards?
Perceived willingness to sacrifice for your principles is in this case definitely not a (positive) contributing factor to the attractiveness of those high status roles.
Conflating everything with “status” or “power” isn’t useful here. There are occupations that don’t give you extra respect or deference in society at large, and yet still have the increased attractiveness due to association with principle. Artists and musicians, for example, can often get this attractiveness bonus even if they lack any power or status in society at large… and in fact, the choice to sacrifice money or power for their creative principles is often a driving factor in that attractiveness.
Are you kidding? What actual power does a firefighter or soldier have, at the bottom rung of the power structure?
The power over life and death. Being one of those who enforces the rules rather than the one enforced upon (with all the benefits that entails—see anything by Robin with the keyword ‘homo hippocritus’).
I don’t accept your premises regarding artists either. I think it will be better for us to simply acknowledge that we fundamentally disagree on this particular topic. It has been my observation that many of your presented beliefs are better optimised for being healthy beliefs to instil in people than as raw descriptions of reality. (That too I obviously don’t expect you to agree on, although I don’t mean it as a slight. It is a valuable role, just not compatible with my thinking.)
The power over life and death. Being one of those who enforces the rules rather than the one enforced upon.
Actually, these professions have vastly more rules imposed upon them. And what rules does an EMT enforce? “Power of life and death” doesn’t make a lot of sense here, nor does it make sense for artists or musicians.
Your statements don’t reflect a consistent model here, as it doesn’t have any consistent predictions about what professions should and shouldn’t be considered attractive. Instead, you just change your explanations, or avoid giving an explanation entirely. (e.g. “I don’t accept your premises regarding artists”).
OTOH, I’m making a testable prediction: an observable increase on average in indicators of attraction, admiration, or arousal (facial expression & autonomic responses) among women hearing about men who are in some profession that involves personal sacrifice for others or for a principle, controlled for whether the profession has any actual societal status or power, and provided that the principles or persons sacrificed for are not directly and personally opposed by the listener as a matter of vengeance or personal principles.
For example, I would predict that participation in say, a Big Brother program, or other volunteer activity would make a man be considered more attractive than a person who did not so volunteer, provided that their other attractiveness factors were considered.
I do not predict that power, status, an so on are not attractive; I’m just saying they’re orthogonal to the element of ability to effectively precommit, whether it’s to sacrifice for others or for one’s principles. Either way, evidence of ability to successfully follow through on a precommitment is attractive in a person.
This is closer to the mark, but I still assert that the sacrifice is not a positive contributor to the appeal.
If you take two roles with equal power, equal authority, equal recognition as ‘official’ and equal reliance on physical prowess then the one that requires the least sacrifice will be the most attractive. Having to give up resources to get your power is a strict negative in the signal it sends.
This is obviously not related to what those in a given high status role will say or even believe about the appeal of their station (and the dictator at the top says he’s only doing things for the greater good too.)
Sacrifice is something that you (the hypothetical aspirant for power and status) convince others is the right thing to do, that you declare sincerely is the way to success but you never actually do yourself if you can avoid it. It is far more efficient and effective to simply declare that you have made sacrifice and implicitly threaten physical or social punishment for anyone who questions your word. Observers will be attracted both to the obvious lack of sacrifice that you have to make and to your ability to have other people go along with your make believe. (This process is best left unconscious. Acknowledging it explicitly is so banal.)
This is closer to the mark, but I still assert that the sacrifice is not a positive contributor to the appeal.
It’s not the sacrifice, it’s the willingness to sacrifice, that thereby demonstrates commitment—that one is capable of protecting and providing for one’s partners.
This is a distinct and separate measure from the amount of resources one has control or influence over. If you have a lot of resources, but are stingy, then you might actually be less suitable than if you had few resources but were willing to risk them all on something you believe in… as long as your potential mate believes they can get you to believe in them.
That is a nice sounding story that is no doubt handy to illustrate a principle. But I basically don’t buy it at all. Those roles are highly valued because they are high in status, come with power and are an established part of the authority system of the culture. Perceived willingness to sacrifice for your principles is in this case definitely not a (positive) contributing factor to the attractiveness of those high status roles.
Are you kidding? What actual power does a firefighter or soldier have, at the bottom rung of the power structure? How about an EMT or a rescue um, tech? (What do they call people who rescue people?) What about lifeguards?
Conflating everything with “status” or “power” isn’t useful here. There are occupations that don’t give you extra respect or deference in society at large, and yet still have the increased attractiveness due to association with principle. Artists and musicians, for example, can often get this attractiveness bonus even if they lack any power or status in society at large… and in fact, the choice to sacrifice money or power for their creative principles is often a driving factor in that attractiveness.
The power over life and death. Being one of those who enforces the rules rather than the one enforced upon (with all the benefits that entails—see anything by Robin with the keyword ‘homo hippocritus’).
I don’t accept your premises regarding artists either. I think it will be better for us to simply acknowledge that we fundamentally disagree on this particular topic. It has been my observation that many of your presented beliefs are better optimised for being healthy beliefs to instil in people than as raw descriptions of reality. (That too I obviously don’t expect you to agree on, although I don’t mean it as a slight. It is a valuable role, just not compatible with my thinking.)
Actually, these professions have vastly more rules imposed upon them. And what rules does an EMT enforce? “Power of life and death” doesn’t make a lot of sense here, nor does it make sense for artists or musicians.
Your statements don’t reflect a consistent model here, as it doesn’t have any consistent predictions about what professions should and shouldn’t be considered attractive. Instead, you just change your explanations, or avoid giving an explanation entirely. (e.g. “I don’t accept your premises regarding artists”).
OTOH, I’m making a testable prediction: an observable increase on average in indicators of attraction, admiration, or arousal (facial expression & autonomic responses) among women hearing about men who are in some profession that involves personal sacrifice for others or for a principle, controlled for whether the profession has any actual societal status or power, and provided that the principles or persons sacrificed for are not directly and personally opposed by the listener as a matter of vengeance or personal principles.
For example, I would predict that participation in say, a Big Brother program, or other volunteer activity would make a man be considered more attractive than a person who did not so volunteer, provided that their other attractiveness factors were considered.
I do not predict that power, status, an so on are not attractive; I’m just saying they’re orthogonal to the element of ability to effectively precommit, whether it’s to sacrifice for others or for one’s principles. Either way, evidence of ability to successfully follow through on a precommitment is attractive in a person.
I suspect it’s not general willingness to sacrifice for principles—it’s willingness to sacrifice for values that the society agrees with.
This is closer to the mark, but I still assert that the sacrifice is not a positive contributor to the appeal.
If you take two roles with equal power, equal authority, equal recognition as ‘official’ and equal reliance on physical prowess then the one that requires the least sacrifice will be the most attractive. Having to give up resources to get your power is a strict negative in the signal it sends.
This is obviously not related to what those in a given high status role will say or even believe about the appeal of their station (and the dictator at the top says he’s only doing things for the greater good too.)
Sacrifice is something that you (the hypothetical aspirant for power and status) convince others is the right thing to do, that you declare sincerely is the way to success but you never actually do yourself if you can avoid it. It is far more efficient and effective to simply declare that you have made sacrifice and implicitly threaten physical or social punishment for anyone who questions your word. Observers will be attracted both to the obvious lack of sacrifice that you have to make and to your ability to have other people go along with your make believe. (This process is best left unconscious. Acknowledging it explicitly is so banal.)
It’s not the sacrifice, it’s the willingness to sacrifice, that thereby demonstrates commitment—that one is capable of protecting and providing for one’s partners.
This is a distinct and separate measure from the amount of resources one has control or influence over. If you have a lot of resources, but are stingy, then you might actually be less suitable than if you had few resources but were willing to risk them all on something you believe in… as long as your potential mate believes they can get you to believe in them.