’Twas about time that I decided to officially join. I discovered LessWrong in the autumn of 2010, and so far I felt reluctant to actually contribute—most people here have far more illustrious backgrounds. But I figured that there are sufficiently few ways in which I could show myself as a total ignoramus in an intro post, right?
I don’t consider my gender, age and nationality to be a relevant part of my identity, so instead I’d start by saying I’m INTP. Extreme I (to the point of schizoid personality disorder), extreme T. Usually I have this big internal conflict going on between the part of me that wishes to appear as a wholly rational genius and the other part, who has read enough psychology and LW (you guys definitely deserve credit for this) to know I’m bullshitting myself big time.
My educational background so far is modest, a fact for which procrastination is the main culprit. I’m currently working on catching up with high school level math… so far I’ve only reviewed trigonometry, so I’m afraid I won’t be able to participate in more technical discussions around here. Aside from a few Khan Academy videos, I’m still ignorant about probability; I did try to solve that cancer probability problem though, and when put like that into a word problem, I used Bayes’ theorem intuitively. (Funny thing is, I still don’t understand the magic behind it, even if I can apply it.) I know no programming beyond really elementary C++ algorithms; I have a pretty good grasp of high school physics, minus relativity and QM. I am seeking to do everything in my power to correct these shortcomings, and when/if I achieve results, I’ll be happy to post my findings about motivation & procrastination on LW, if anyone is interested.
That which I have in common with the rest of this community is a love for rational, intelligent and productive discussions. I’m hugely disappointed with the overwhelming majority of internet and RL debates. Many times I’ve found myself trying to be the voice of reason and pointing out flaws in people’s reasoning, even when I agreed with the core idea, only to have them tell me that I’m being too analytical and that I should… what… close off my mind and stop noticing mistakes, right? So I come here seeking discussions with people who would listen to reason and facilitate intellectually fruitful debates.
I’m very eager to help spread the knowledge about cognitive biases and educate people in the art of good reasoning.
I’m also interested (although not necessarily well-versed, as mentioned above) in most topics people here are interested in—everything concerning mathematics and science, as well as philosophy and the mind (which are, by comparison, my two strongest points).
There are quite a few ways in which I don’t fit the typical LW mold, though, and I’m mentioning this so that I find out whether any of these are going to be problematic in our interaction.
For one, I’m not particularly interested in AI and transhumanism. Not opposed to, just indifferent. The only related topic which interests me is life extension research. In the eventuality that some people might try to change my mind about this from the get-go, as I’ve seen some do with other newbies, I know you probably have some very good arguments for your position, but hopefully nobody’s going to mind one less potential AI enthusiast. My interests are spread thin enough as they are.
I seem to be significantly more left-leaning than the majority of folks here. I’m decidedly not dogmatic about it, though, and on occasion I speak out against heavily ideological discourse even when it has a central message that I agree with.
Kind of clueless and mathematically illiterate at this moment.
This has to be getting rather long, so I’ll stop here, hoping that I’ve said everything that I believed to be relevant to an intro post.
Many times I’ve found myself trying to be the voice of reason and pointing out flaws in people’s reasoning, even when I agreed with the core idea, only to have them tell me that I’m being too analytical and that I should… what… close off my mind and stop noticing mistakes, right?
That’s interesting… I don’t think I’ve ever had someone respond to my pointing out flaws in this way. I’ve had people argue back plenty of times, but never tell me that we shouldn’t be arguing about it. Can you give some examples of topics where this has happened? I would be curious what kind of topics engender this reaction in people.
I’ve seen this happen where one person enjoys debate/arguing and another does not. To one person it’s an interesting discussion, and to the other it feels like a personal attack. Or, more commonly, I’ve seen onlookers get upset watching such a discussion, even if they don’t personally feel targeted. Specifically, I’m remembering three men loudly debating about physics while several of their wives left the room in protest because it felt too argumentative to them.
Body language and voice dynamics can affect this a lot, I think—some people get loud and frowny when they’re excited/thinking hard, and others may misread that as angry.
I ended up having to include a disclaimer in the FAQ for an older project of mine, saying that the senior staff tends to get very intense when discussing the project and that this doesn’t indicate drama on our part but is actually friendly behavior. That was a text channel, though, so body dynamics and voice wouldn’t have had anything to do with it. I think a lot of people just read any intense discussion as hostile, and quality of argument doesn’t really enter into it—probably because they’re used to an arguments-as-soldiers perspective.
Oh, it’s not a topic-specific behavior. Every time I go too far down a chain of reasoning (“too far” meaning as few as three causal relationships), sometimes people start complaining that I’m giving too much thought to it, and imply they are unable to follow the arguments. I’m just not surrounded by a lot of people that like long and intricate discussions.
(Funnily, both my parents are the type that get tired listening to complex reasoning, and I turned out the complete opposite.)
I’m just not surrounded by a lot of people that like long and intricate discussions.
That is...intensely frustrating. I’ve had people tell me that “well, I find all the points you’re trying to make really complicated, and it’s easier for me to just have faith in God” or that kind of thing, but I’ve never actually been rebuked for applying an analytical mindset to discussions. Props on having acquired those habits anyway, in spite of what sounds like an unfruitful starting environment!
Thanks! Anyway, there’s the internet to compensate for that. The wide range of online forums built around ideas of varied intellectual depth means you even get to choose your difficulty level...
This happens frequently in places where reasoning is suspect, or not valued. Kids in poor areas with few scholastic or academic opportunities find more validation in pursuits that are non-academic, and they tend to deride logic. It’s parodied well by Colbert, but it’s not uncommon.
I just avoid those people, now know few of them. Most of the crowd here, I suspect, is in a similar position.
I just avoid those people, now know few of them. Most of the crowd here, I suspect, is in a similar position.
I may be in a similar position of never having known anyone who was like this. Also, I’m very conflict averse myself (but like discussing), so any discussion I start is less likely to have any component of raised voices or emotional involvement that could make it sound like an argument.
The best way for me to get good at some particular type of math, or programming, or skill, in my experience, is to put yourself in a position where you need to do it for something. Find a job that requires you to do a bit of programming, or pick a task that requires it. Spend time on it, and you’ll learn a bit. Then go back and realize you missed some basics, and pick them up. Oh, and read a ton.
You’re interested in a lot of things, and trying to catch up with what you feel you should know, which is wonderful. What do you do with your time? Are you working? College?
I prefer the practice-based approach too, but from my position theoretical approaches are cheaper and much more available, if slower and rather tedious. In school they taught us that the only way to get better in an area is to do extra homework, and frankly my methods haven’t improved much since. My usual way is to take an exercise book and solve everything in it, if that counts for practice; other than that, I only have the internet and a very limited budget.
You’re interested in a lot of things, and trying to catch up with what you feel you should know, which is wonderful. What do you do with your time? Are you working? College?
Senior year in high school. Right now I have 49 vacation days left, after which school will start, studying will get replaced with busywork and my learning rates will have no choice but to fall dramatically. So now I’m trying to maximize studying time while I still can… It’s all kind of backwards, isn’t it?
Where you go to college and the amount of any scholarships you get are a bigger deal for your long term personal growth than any of the specific subjects you will learn right now.
In the spirit of long term decision making, figure out where you want to go to college, or what your options are, and spend the summer maximizing the odds of getting in to your first choice schools. I cannot imagine that it won’t be a better investment of your time than any one subject you are studying (unless you are preparing for SAT or some such test.) So I guess you should spend the summer on Khan, and learning and practicing vocabulary to get better at taking the tests that will get you into a great college, where your opportunities to learn are greatly expanded.
I’m afraid all of this is not really applicable to me… My country isn’t Western enough for such a wide range of opportunities. Here, institutes for higher education range from almost acceptable (state universities) to degree factories (basically all private colleges). Studying abroad in a Western country costs, per semester, somewhere between half and thrice my parents’ yearly income. On top of everything, my grades would have to be impeccable and my performances worthy of national recognition for a foreign college to want me as a student so much as to step over the money issue and cover my whole tuition. (They’re not, not by a long shot.)
’Twas about time that I decided to officially join. I discovered LessWrong in the autumn of 2010, and so far I felt reluctant to actually contribute—most people here have far more illustrious backgrounds. But I figured that there are sufficiently few ways in which I could show myself as a total ignoramus in an intro post, right?
I don’t consider my gender, age and nationality to be a relevant part of my identity, so instead I’d start by saying I’m INTP. Extreme I (to the point of schizoid personality disorder), extreme T. Usually I have this big internal conflict going on between the part of me that wishes to appear as a wholly rational genius and the other part, who has read enough psychology and LW (you guys definitely deserve credit for this) to know I’m bullshitting myself big time.
My educational background so far is modest, a fact for which procrastination is the main culprit. I’m currently working on catching up with high school level math… so far I’ve only reviewed trigonometry, so I’m afraid I won’t be able to participate in more technical discussions around here. Aside from a few Khan Academy videos, I’m still ignorant about probability; I did try to solve that cancer probability problem though, and when put like that into a word problem, I used Bayes’ theorem intuitively. (Funny thing is, I still don’t understand the magic behind it, even if I can apply it.) I know no programming beyond really elementary C++ algorithms; I have a pretty good grasp of high school physics, minus relativity and QM. I am seeking to do everything in my power to correct these shortcomings, and when/if I achieve results, I’ll be happy to post my findings about motivation & procrastination on LW, if anyone is interested.
That which I have in common with the rest of this community is a love for rational, intelligent and productive discussions. I’m hugely disappointed with the overwhelming majority of internet and RL debates. Many times I’ve found myself trying to be the voice of reason and pointing out flaws in people’s reasoning, even when I agreed with the core idea, only to have them tell me that I’m being too analytical and that I should… what… close off my mind and stop noticing mistakes, right? So I come here seeking discussions with people who would listen to reason and facilitate intellectually fruitful debates.
I’m very eager to help spread the knowledge about cognitive biases and educate people in the art of good reasoning.
I’m also interested (although not necessarily well-versed, as mentioned above) in most topics people here are interested in—everything concerning mathematics and science, as well as philosophy and the mind (which are, by comparison, my two strongest points).
There are quite a few ways in which I don’t fit the typical LW mold, though, and I’m mentioning this so that I find out whether any of these are going to be problematic in our interaction.
For one, I’m not particularly interested in AI and transhumanism. Not opposed to, just indifferent. The only related topic which interests me is life extension research. In the eventuality that some people might try to change my mind about this from the get-go, as I’ve seen some do with other newbies, I know you probably have some very good arguments for your position, but hopefully nobody’s going to mind one less potential AI enthusiast. My interests are spread thin enough as they are.
I seem to be significantly more left-leaning than the majority of folks here. I’m decidedly not dogmatic about it, though, and on occasion I speak out against heavily ideological discourse even when it has a central message that I agree with.
Kind of clueless and mathematically illiterate at this moment.
This has to be getting rather long, so I’ll stop here, hoping that I’ve said everything that I believed to be relevant to an intro post.
Welcome!
That’s interesting… I don’t think I’ve ever had someone respond to my pointing out flaws in this way. I’ve had people argue back plenty of times, but never tell me that we shouldn’t be arguing about it. Can you give some examples of topics where this has happened? I would be curious what kind of topics engender this reaction in people.
I’ve seen this happen where one person enjoys debate/arguing and another does not. To one person it’s an interesting discussion, and to the other it feels like a personal attack. Or, more commonly, I’ve seen onlookers get upset watching such a discussion, even if they don’t personally feel targeted. Specifically, I’m remembering three men loudly debating about physics while several of their wives left the room in protest because it felt too argumentative to them.
Body language and voice dynamics can affect this a lot, I think—some people get loud and frowny when they’re excited/thinking hard, and others may misread that as angry.
I ended up having to include a disclaimer in the FAQ for an older project of mine, saying that the senior staff tends to get very intense when discussing the project and that this doesn’t indicate drama on our part but is actually friendly behavior. That was a text channel, though, so body dynamics and voice wouldn’t have had anything to do with it. I think a lot of people just read any intense discussion as hostile, and quality of argument doesn’t really enter into it—probably because they’re used to an arguments-as-soldiers perspective.
We used to say of two friends of mine that “They don’t so much toss ideas back and forth as hurl sharp jagged ideas directly at one another’s heads.”
--Steven Erikson, House of Chains (2002)
Oh, it’s not a topic-specific behavior. Every time I go too far down a chain of reasoning (“too far” meaning as few as three causal relationships), sometimes people start complaining that I’m giving too much thought to it, and imply they are unable to follow the arguments. I’m just not surrounded by a lot of people that like long and intricate discussions.
(Funnily, both my parents are the type that get tired listening to complex reasoning, and I turned out the complete opposite.)
That is...intensely frustrating. I’ve had people tell me that “well, I find all the points you’re trying to make really complicated, and it’s easier for me to just have faith in God” or that kind of thing, but I’ve never actually been rebuked for applying an analytical mindset to discussions. Props on having acquired those habits anyway, in spite of what sounds like an unfruitful starting environment!
Thanks! Anyway, there’s the internet to compensate for that. The wide range of online forums built around ideas of varied intellectual depth means you even get to choose your difficulty level...
This happens frequently in places where reasoning is suspect, or not valued. Kids in poor areas with few scholastic or academic opportunities find more validation in pursuits that are non-academic, and they tend to deride logic. It’s parodied well by Colbert, but it’s not uncommon.
I just avoid those people, now know few of them. Most of the crowd here, I suspect, is in a similar position.
I may be in a similar position of never having known anyone who was like this. Also, I’m very conflict averse myself (but like discussing), so any discussion I start is less likely to have any component of raised voices or emotional involvement that could make it sound like an argument.
The best way for me to get good at some particular type of math, or programming, or skill, in my experience, is to put yourself in a position where you need to do it for something. Find a job that requires you to do a bit of programming, or pick a task that requires it. Spend time on it, and you’ll learn a bit. Then go back and realize you missed some basics, and pick them up. Oh, and read a ton.
You’re interested in a lot of things, and trying to catch up with what you feel you should know, which is wonderful. What do you do with your time? Are you working? College?
I prefer the practice-based approach too, but from my position theoretical approaches are cheaper and much more available, if slower and rather tedious. In school they taught us that the only way to get better in an area is to do extra homework, and frankly my methods haven’t improved much since. My usual way is to take an exercise book and solve everything in it, if that counts for practice; other than that, I only have the internet and a very limited budget.
Senior year in high school. Right now I have 49 vacation days left, after which school will start, studying will get replaced with busywork and my learning rates will have no choice but to fall dramatically. So now I’m trying to maximize studying time while I still can… It’s all kind of backwards, isn’t it?
Where you go to college and the amount of any scholarships you get are a bigger deal for your long term personal growth than any of the specific subjects you will learn right now.
In the spirit of long term decision making, figure out where you want to go to college, or what your options are, and spend the summer maximizing the odds of getting in to your first choice schools. I cannot imagine that it won’t be a better investment of your time than any one subject you are studying (unless you are preparing for SAT or some such test.) So I guess you should spend the summer on Khan, and learning and practicing vocabulary to get better at taking the tests that will get you into a great college, where your opportunities to learn are greatly expanded.
I’m afraid all of this is not really applicable to me… My country isn’t Western enough for such a wide range of opportunities. Here, institutes for higher education range from almost acceptable (state universities) to degree factories (basically all private colleges). Studying abroad in a Western country costs, per semester, somewhere between half and thrice my parents’ yearly income. On top of everything, my grades would have to be impeccable and my performances worthy of national recognition for a foreign college to want me as a student so much as to step over the money issue and cover my whole tuition. (They’re not, not by a long shot.)
Thanks for the support, in any case...