Hmm … no, they’re still parallel: the man is objectified as a symbol of female achievement, with unattractiveness being cited as the barrier to a relationship.
Hmm … no, they’re still parallel: the man is objectified as a symbol of female achievement, with unattractiveness being cited as the barrier to a relationship.
I still don’t get it. How about, “your research is so awful, no respectable scientists will cite you.” Are we objectifying scientists, then?
AFAICT, these statements are of the form “you lack quality X, therefore those who desire quality X will not give you the form of approval or validation you desire.” That is, the statement takes into account the expected goals of the agent being putdown, as well as a presumed class of agents whose approval is sought. That doesn’t sound like anybody’s being considered an “object” whose goals don’t count; it’s saying, your results don’t align with this other group’s goals.
True, the assumed goals may not apply to every member of the presumed class (perhaps there are some “respectable scientists” who will cite your work), but this doesn’t somehow reach out and harm every single “respectable scientist”! (It doesn’t even harm the scientists who would cite the work, unless they take the putdown to indirectly imply that they are not “respectable”.)
That’s a generous interpretation. In some cases it may even be correct. But in some cases it is not.
How is it a generous interpretation? Such putdowns are a straightforward attack on primate self-esteem—your measure of the group’s opinion of you. If it weren’t about approval, it couldn’t be an insult.
Compare, for example, with, “you’re so short, you’ll never get those bananas out of the tree.” That’s not an insult, it’s just a statement of fact.
Such putdowns can’t work by “objectification”, because if you replace the people with objects, it’s no longer inherently insulting. “Your programs are so long, you’ll never fit them in memory.” “Your hut is so unstable, it’ll probably fall down.”
The only way an insult can make sense is if it implies that people who matter (e.g. women) don’t approve of you. “Ha ha, you’re so poor, you’ll never be able to buy a Mercedes” cannot possibly be as insulting, unless by cultural implication this means you will be disapproved of by some group, or there’s a cultural expectation that you can’t be a good mate without a Mercedes. The choice of an opposite sex group of disapprovers is simply chosen to maximize the emotional impact of the intended wound. (i.e., your genes will die out because no one will want you as a mate.)
Hmm … no, they’re still parallel: the man is objectified as a symbol of female achievement, with unattractiveness being cited as the barrier to a relationship.
The thing is, you don’t address the thing you objectify, you just talk about them like it is an object.
(That’s not to say that the content you point out in both examples isn’t toxic and sexist, just that it falls under a different heading.)
I still don’t get it. How about, “your research is so awful, no respectable scientists will cite you.” Are we objectifying scientists, then?
AFAICT, these statements are of the form “you lack quality X, therefore those who desire quality X will not give you the form of approval or validation you desire.” That is, the statement takes into account the expected goals of the agent being putdown, as well as a presumed class of agents whose approval is sought. That doesn’t sound like anybody’s being considered an “object” whose goals don’t count; it’s saying, your results don’t align with this other group’s goals.
True, the assumed goals may not apply to every member of the presumed class (perhaps there are some “respectable scientists” who will cite your work), but this doesn’t somehow reach out and harm every single “respectable scientist”! (It doesn’t even harm the scientists who would cite the work, unless they take the putdown to indirectly imply that they are not “respectable”.)
The researcher reward is citations—those are the objects. In the other two cases, the rewards are people.
No, in all three cases, the true reward is the approval of those people; i.e., the true message of the putdown is, “nobody approves of you”.
That’s a generous interpretation. In some cases it may even be correct. But in some cases it is not.
How is it a generous interpretation? Such putdowns are a straightforward attack on primate self-esteem—your measure of the group’s opinion of you. If it weren’t about approval, it couldn’t be an insult.
Compare, for example, with, “you’re so short, you’ll never get those bananas out of the tree.” That’s not an insult, it’s just a statement of fact.
Such putdowns can’t work by “objectification”, because if you replace the people with objects, it’s no longer inherently insulting. “Your programs are so long, you’ll never fit them in memory.” “Your hut is so unstable, it’ll probably fall down.”
The only way an insult can make sense is if it implies that people who matter (e.g. women) don’t approve of you. “Ha ha, you’re so poor, you’ll never be able to buy a Mercedes” cannot possibly be as insulting, unless by cultural implication this means you will be disapproved of by some group, or there’s a cultural expectation that you can’t be a good mate without a Mercedes. The choice of an opposite sex group of disapprovers is simply chosen to maximize the emotional impact of the intended wound. (i.e., your genes will die out because no one will want you as a mate.)
Great link, thanks!
Welcome!
“Welcome”? Huh? Did you turn on the anti-kibitzer?
lol, I think he meant “(You’re) Welcome!” =)
What (ah, history repeating itself) MBlume said. (;