If anything, I have the convert’s bias in this regard, Michael, not the true-born believer’s. I’m fairly young and was raised in quite a progressive household. I’d suspect myself more of overstating my case because it has come to me as such a revelatory shock. But that’s neither here nor there, as I’m not advocating for any specific “tradition.”
I’ll posit that gender roles and dynamics since the feminist movement began in earnest in the 60s and 70s have proven to be a sizable and essentially unprecedented break from the previous continuum in Western societies going back at least a couple thousand years. I don’t know enough about 1600s Japan or Hopi or Dravidian societies to speculate as to whether they fit into that pattern too. I understand there are arguments that feminist regimes are actually more original to the human species and that patriarchy only appears with the advent of agriculture and monarchy/despotism. My understanding is that this is an open question, and again beyond my expertise. So I should readily concede that “traditional” is a highly suspect term.
So I’ll be even more blunt, since this is our comment thread to not worry about whether or not these views are currently acceptable, right?
My rather vague comment is based in a more specific belief that women like to be dominated by men, that these feelings are natural and not pathological (whether or not that makes them “right” is of course another question) that they are unhappy when their man is incapable of domination and are left feeling deeply sexually unfulfilled by the careerism which empowers them elsewhere in their lives, that the current social education of both women and men (at least in the circles of the US in which I move) teach everyone that it’s abhorrent and wrong for a man to assert power over a woman, that men who enjoy it are twisted assholes and that women who enjoy it are suffering from deep psychological damage, and that it is practically inexcusable for a woman to admit that her limbic system gives her pleasure signals when a man arouses her this way.
Naturally, I am basing the perception of this relatively new regime, at least in its current extreme form, on my interpretation of what came immediately before in the society in which I was raised (I don’t know firsthand as I was born well into the current regime), so your point stands, I suppose. But I don’t really think using this as a starting off point merits any twinkling snark.
The second sentence of my original post, however, contains the more important point. Regardless of whatever “norm” anyone has in mind, be it Basque, Dravidian, or Branch Davidian, the real problem is that the current norm actively teaches unhappiness-increasing lies. If the last regime was imperfect too, I’d counter that two wrongs don’t make a right.
Though as Z M Davis notes, not all beings value happiness highest. I readily concede that too.
What I personally have observed is that there are plenty of men and women who have a need or desire to be dominated. And that a minority of these people can’t deal with the idea that it’s “just” a sexual fetish or personal quirk, but must convince themselves instead that the entire world would be happier or much better off if only our entire society were male supremacist or female supremacist, accordingly.
I’ve also observed that there are plenty of people who have a leadership or followership preference in a relationship… but the desire to be the follower is both more widespread and more gender-balanced than the desire to be the leader.
So I guess what I’m saying is, the fact that there’s a large unsatisfied market of females wishing to be dominated (sexually or otherwise) should NOT be mistaken for an indicator that this is somehow “the way the world should be”.
That market is unsatisfied for the same reason its male counterpart is: there simply aren’t enough people of either gender with the inclination, experience, self-awareness, etc. to meet the demand.
It’s my impersonal understanding that the ratio of male submissives to female dominants is way worse than the ratio of female submissives to male dominants—both kinds of submissives will have trouble finding a dominant counterpart, but the heterosexual males have it way worse.
That’s why I said the desire to be a follower is more gender-balanced than the desire to be a leader. I also used “leader” and “follower” because “dominant” and “submissive” carry more sexual overtone than is actually relevant to my point… but also because it’s way easier for men to find socially “leading” partners than sexually leading ones.
Also, to make things more complex… there are plenty of people who like to go both ways… and there are people who want to be sexually dominant but socially submissive or vice versa… if you’ve actually met and spoken with enough real people (without the self-selection bias that occurs when people with identical kinks get together), it quickly cures you of any idea that you can just say, “This Is The One True Way Relationships Should Be.”
(My wife owns a lingerie and adult toy/video store, and we’ve socialized with a lot of kinky and swinger folk, including gay, transgendered, etc. -- for a fairly broad definition of “etc.”)
This makes a lot of sense. I’m thinking of the dilemma my husband and I had when I wanted him to learn to swing dance, but neither of us wanted to learn to lead. Or my 6′4″ male friend who told me sadly that sometimes, he just wants someone who’s bigger than him, whose shoulder he can lean on.
Totally agreed. The thread starter has made a rash and morally suspect assertion—morally suspect because talking about people’s happiness as exclusively a simple thing to be manipulated through cultural dogma, and the only grade on which a life can be rated as pleasant or not is whether a dogma brings the sensation of pleasure to certain individuals in certain circumstances or not—well, it goes against seeing people as an end in itself, and it’s just icky.
My rather vague comment is based in a more specific belief that women like to be dominated by men,
You might be Generalizing From One Example—just because you like that doesn’t mean all women do, and in fact I strongly believe that some women do and some don’t, where by “some” I mean “more than 5% and less than 95%”.
If anything, I have the convert’s bias in this regard, Michael, not the true-born believer’s. I’m fairly young and was raised in quite a progressive household. I’d suspect myself more of overstating my case because it has come to me as such a revelatory shock. But that’s neither here nor there, as I’m not advocating for any specific “tradition.”
I’ll posit that gender roles and dynamics since the feminist movement began in earnest in the 60s and 70s have proven to be a sizable and essentially unprecedented break from the previous continuum in Western societies going back at least a couple thousand years. I don’t know enough about 1600s Japan or Hopi or Dravidian societies to speculate as to whether they fit into that pattern too. I understand there are arguments that feminist regimes are actually more original to the human species and that patriarchy only appears with the advent of agriculture and monarchy/despotism. My understanding is that this is an open question, and again beyond my expertise. So I should readily concede that “traditional” is a highly suspect term.
So I’ll be even more blunt, since this is our comment thread to not worry about whether or not these views are currently acceptable, right?
My rather vague comment is based in a more specific belief that women like to be dominated by men, that these feelings are natural and not pathological (whether or not that makes them “right” is of course another question) that they are unhappy when their man is incapable of domination and are left feeling deeply sexually unfulfilled by the careerism which empowers them elsewhere in their lives, that the current social education of both women and men (at least in the circles of the US in which I move) teach everyone that it’s abhorrent and wrong for a man to assert power over a woman, that men who enjoy it are twisted assholes and that women who enjoy it are suffering from deep psychological damage, and that it is practically inexcusable for a woman to admit that her limbic system gives her pleasure signals when a man arouses her this way.
Naturally, I am basing the perception of this relatively new regime, at least in its current extreme form, on my interpretation of what came immediately before in the society in which I was raised (I don’t know firsthand as I was born well into the current regime), so your point stands, I suppose. But I don’t really think using this as a starting off point merits any twinkling snark.
The second sentence of my original post, however, contains the more important point. Regardless of whatever “norm” anyone has in mind, be it Basque, Dravidian, or Branch Davidian, the real problem is that the current norm actively teaches unhappiness-increasing lies. If the last regime was imperfect too, I’d counter that two wrongs don’t make a right.
Though as Z M Davis notes, not all beings value happiness highest. I readily concede that too.
What I personally have observed is that there are plenty of men and women who have a need or desire to be dominated. And that a minority of these people can’t deal with the idea that it’s “just” a sexual fetish or personal quirk, but must convince themselves instead that the entire world would be happier or much better off if only our entire society were male supremacist or female supremacist, accordingly.
I’ve also observed that there are plenty of people who have a leadership or followership preference in a relationship… but the desire to be the follower is both more widespread and more gender-balanced than the desire to be the leader.
So I guess what I’m saying is, the fact that there’s a large unsatisfied market of females wishing to be dominated (sexually or otherwise) should NOT be mistaken for an indicator that this is somehow “the way the world should be”.
That market is unsatisfied for the same reason its male counterpart is: there simply aren’t enough people of either gender with the inclination, experience, self-awareness, etc. to meet the demand.
It’s my impersonal understanding that the ratio of male submissives to female dominants is way worse than the ratio of female submissives to male dominants—both kinds of submissives will have trouble finding a dominant counterpart, but the heterosexual males have it way worse.
That’s why I said the desire to be a follower is more gender-balanced than the desire to be a leader. I also used “leader” and “follower” because “dominant” and “submissive” carry more sexual overtone than is actually relevant to my point… but also because it’s way easier for men to find socially “leading” partners than sexually leading ones.
Also, to make things more complex… there are plenty of people who like to go both ways… and there are people who want to be sexually dominant but socially submissive or vice versa… if you’ve actually met and spoken with enough real people (without the self-selection bias that occurs when people with identical kinks get together), it quickly cures you of any idea that you can just say, “This Is The One True Way Relationships Should Be.”
(My wife owns a lingerie and adult toy/video store, and we’ve socialized with a lot of kinky and swinger folk, including gay, transgendered, etc. -- for a fairly broad definition of “etc.”)
This is very much my impression also—as a switch, I’m topping a lot more than would be my natural inclination because that’s where the demand is.
This makes a lot of sense. I’m thinking of the dilemma my husband and I had when I wanted him to learn to swing dance, but neither of us wanted to learn to lead. Or my 6′4″ male friend who told me sadly that sometimes, he just wants someone who’s bigger than him, whose shoulder he can lean on.
Totally agreed. The thread starter has made a rash and morally suspect assertion—morally suspect because talking about people’s happiness as exclusively a simple thing to be manipulated through cultural dogma, and the only grade on which a life can be rated as pleasant or not is whether a dogma brings the sensation of pleasure to certain individuals in certain circumstances or not—well, it goes against seeing people as an end in itself, and it’s just icky.
You might be Generalizing From One Example—just because you like that doesn’t mean all women do, and in fact I strongly believe that some women do and some don’t, where by “some” I mean “more than 5% and less than 95%”.