Yeah, a lot of the time nuance feels either like CYA loophole-closing or overexplaining.
I agree that defensive writing exists, is usually worse than non-defensive writing, and that you can frame some of the defenses as nuance (although I don’t think that’s the only place nuance comes from). But I feel like this comment frames defensive writing as a flaw of the author, and I don’t think that’s fair. LessWrong can be an absolutely miserable place to post, defensive writing happens because authors have a justified fear of being ~attacked. I think if you want posters to write less defensively the intervention point should be calming down the comments and otherwise providing psychological safety.
You could argue that defensive writing by and large doesn’t work. I used to think this, and I still think it does a bad job at preventing bad top level comments. But it makes it more likely another commenter gets your point and corrects the bad commenter without your involvement, which is very valuable.
But I feel like this comment frames defensive writing as a flaw of the author, and I don’t think that’s fair.
I agree that is a potential takeaway from my comment. I also agree that it’s not fair to overly criticize authors when that reaction toward defensiveness may be because they’re correctly anticipating a harsh PONDS response from their readership. I do have empathy for the problem.
When I read the blog posts I really enjoy, it seems to me those authors manage to write in ways that come across as non-defensive, with exaggerations and humor and “you know what I mean” implications. They rely on me to fill in some of the blanks, and that’s part of the fun of their posts and part of what keeps my attention.
When I write defensively, I feel like way too much of my mental energy is going into combatting phanom future commenters and not enough to the object-level of the post. And when that gets overwhelming I just delete it or leave it in drafts. I have a large graveyard of dead posts.
I used to have a lot more fun writing, enjoying the vividness of language, and while I thank LessWrong for improving many aspects of my thinking, it has also stripped away almost all my verve for language. I think that’s coming from the defensiveness-nuance complex I’m describing, and since the internet is what it is, I guess I’d like to start by changing myself. But my own self-advice may not be right for others.
I used to have a lot more fun writing, enjoying the vividness of language, and while I thank LessWrong for improving many aspects of my thinking, it has also stripped away almost all my verve for language. I think that’s coming from the defensiveness-nuance complex I’m describing, and since the internet is what it is, I guess I’d like to start by changing myself. But my own self-advice may not be right for others.
I have about a 2:1 ratio of unsubmitted to submitted comments. The most common source of deletion is no longer really caring about what I have to say, the second is fending off possible misinterpretations. So I definitely understand just giving up. This seems like it’d make me pretty down on anticipated critique, but I think a good 5-10% of those comments would be net negative so it’s not like it’s all downside.
I remember that I used to write with vigor—I’d really enjoy flushing out what it is I thought and letting the words pour from my fingers. At some point, I think it was in high school, I got a writing assignment back from the teacher and the sum total of the comments were (paraphrased) ‘Very clear voice, no one could have written this but you! B-.’ I’ve never gotten good marks on writing assignments, but that one in particular has stuck with me. While it’s hilarious, it’s amusing to me in the sort of way that also makes me disinterested in writing. I really do feel like I’ve lost a big part of that spark. Very little of it has to do with that one particular comment, but more a general erosion of expected charity. If I anticipate that my words will be taken badly, then the space of ideas I can explore are either limited to the mundane or it requires a gargantuan effort to construct the well fortified arguments necessary to repel the hypothetical critic.
At the risk of giving you advice that I myself regularly fail to follow: perhaps ignore the critics?
I know it doesn’t wash away the cumulative effects of any curmudgeons, but I do appreciate what you wrote here.
‘Very clear voice, no one could have written this but you! B-.’
An open-faced shit sandwich. That’s some standup comedy gold :D
perhaps ignore the critics?
At least filter them! You’re trying to draw a signal from yourself and the world, then condition and analyze it. Good critics help you troubleshoot the circuit, or test the limits of the device you’ve built.
A successful critic understands who the author was trying to help, and bases their criticism on helping the author achieve that goal.
I like the framework of “true, helpful, and kind.” Usually, I’ve seen it as “strive for at least two.” Another way to look at it is “be at least OK at all three.”
I used to have a lot more fun writing, enjoying the vividness of language, and while I thank LessWrong for improving many aspects of my thinking, it has also stripped away almost all my verve for language. I think that’s coming from the defensiveness-nuance complex I’m describing, and since the internet is what it is, I guess I’d like to start by changing myself. But my own self-advice may not be right for others.
That’s also a good example of my concern with turning advice like this into norms. There are obvious malign interpretations of what the advice is saying, and I don’t trust norms to keep their interpretations reasonable, to pay sufficient attention to the nuance. Under such malign interpretations, this can be advice to write defensively, and in the form of norms the defensive writing would be mandatory. Also, you’d need to explain yourself if you don’t do it. It’s no longer merely a risk that you are attacked if you didn’t preemptively disclaim everything possible and impossible, but a norm.
I agree that defensive writing exists, is usually worse than non-defensive writing, and that you can frame some of the defenses as nuance (although I don’t think that’s the only place nuance comes from). But I feel like this comment frames defensive writing as a flaw of the author, and I don’t think that’s fair. LessWrong can be an absolutely miserable place to post, defensive writing happens because authors have a justified fear of being ~attacked. I think if you want posters to write less defensively the intervention point should be calming down the comments and otherwise providing psychological safety.
You could argue that defensive writing by and large doesn’t work. I used to think this, and I still think it does a bad job at preventing bad top level comments. But it makes it more likely another commenter gets your point and corrects the bad commenter without your involvement, which is very valuable.
I agree that is a potential takeaway from my comment. I also agree that it’s not fair to overly criticize authors when that reaction toward defensiveness may be because they’re correctly anticipating a harsh PONDS response from their readership. I do have empathy for the problem.
When I read the blog posts I really enjoy, it seems to me those authors manage to write in ways that come across as non-defensive, with exaggerations and humor and “you know what I mean” implications. They rely on me to fill in some of the blanks, and that’s part of the fun of their posts and part of what keeps my attention.
When I write defensively, I feel like way too much of my mental energy is going into combatting phanom future commenters and not enough to the object-level of the post. And when that gets overwhelming I just delete it or leave it in drafts. I have a large graveyard of dead posts.
I used to have a lot more fun writing, enjoying the vividness of language, and while I thank LessWrong for improving many aspects of my thinking, it has also stripped away almost all my verve for language. I think that’s coming from the defensiveness-nuance complex I’m describing, and since the internet is what it is, I guess I’d like to start by changing myself. But my own self-advice may not be right for others.
I have about a 2:1 ratio of unsubmitted to submitted comments. The most common source of deletion is no longer really caring about what I have to say, the second is fending off possible misinterpretations. So I definitely understand just giving up. This seems like it’d make me pretty down on anticipated critique, but I think a good 5-10% of those comments would be net negative so it’s not like it’s all downside.
I remember that I used to write with vigor—I’d really enjoy flushing out what it is I thought and letting the words pour from my fingers. At some point, I think it was in high school, I got a writing assignment back from the teacher and the sum total of the comments were (paraphrased) ‘Very clear voice, no one could have written this but you! B-.’ I’ve never gotten good marks on writing assignments, but that one in particular has stuck with me. While it’s hilarious, it’s amusing to me in the sort of way that also makes me disinterested in writing. I really do feel like I’ve lost a big part of that spark. Very little of it has to do with that one particular comment, but more a general erosion of expected charity. If I anticipate that my words will be taken badly, then the space of ideas I can explore are either limited to the mundane or it requires a gargantuan effort to construct the well fortified arguments necessary to repel the hypothetical critic.
At the risk of giving you advice that I myself regularly fail to follow: perhaps ignore the critics?
I know it doesn’t wash away the cumulative effects of any curmudgeons, but I do appreciate what you wrote here.
An open-faced shit sandwich. That’s some standup comedy gold :D
At least filter them! You’re trying to draw a signal from yourself and the world, then condition and analyze it. Good critics help you troubleshoot the circuit, or test the limits of the device you’ve built.
A successful critic understands who the author was trying to help, and bases their criticism on helping the author achieve that goal.
I like the framework of “true, helpful, and kind.” Usually, I’ve seen it as “strive for at least two.” Another way to look at it is “be at least OK at all three.”
This is so sad.
That’s also a good example of my concern with turning advice like this into norms. There are obvious malign interpretations of what the advice is saying, and I don’t trust norms to keep their interpretations reasonable, to pay sufficient attention to the nuance. Under such malign interpretations, this can be advice to write defensively, and in the form of norms the defensive writing would be mandatory. Also, you’d need to explain yourself if you don’t do it. It’s no longer merely a risk that you are attacked if you didn’t preemptively disclaim everything possible and impossible, but a norm.