So, I find it very stupid to downvote an expression of an aesthetic/tonal preference, which is why I strong-upvoted this comment to restore normalcy (to +2). This is what two-axis voting is for!
Do people feel the comparisons are needlessly inflammatory? Because I don’t. They’re probably apt descriptions of what Jensen pattern-matches this post to.
Yeah, I think “cringing” is something a person does, and is not a property of a thing itself, and to impart it as a property of the thing itself is to commit the mind-projection fallacy.
Not a crux for me! What’s “fashionable” amongst a group also has strong reliability, yet what’s “fashionable” is something that radically changes very quickly and is primarily a fact about what the people have currently determined is fashionable, and not a fact about the piece of creative work that they’re looking at.
Not to mention that one’s ability to correctly identify how the word ought to be applied is not the same thing as endorsement; there are studies showing that e.g. everyone can identify the “popular” kids, and there’s tremendous interrater reliability on that identification, and yet this is utterly uncorrelated with who those same raters say they actually like or want to spend time with.
I think “cringy” isn’t analogous to “fashionable.” Instead, I would say “cringy” is analogous to “acting so as to care about what’s fashionable.”
Yes, it might change what action specifically is cringy. But it’s always cringy to do something that non-subtly signals how much you’re a part of an in-group.
Used that way, it’s not mind-killing at all to make people aware that they’re signalling in-groupiness in a non-subtle way and therefore predictably turning off lots of people.
You’re misreading me denotationally if you think I said that cringey and fashionable are the same. I used fashion as an example to argue that just because something has a reliable referent in the minds of a population at a given time, doesn’t mean it’s a property that isn’t largely content-free and determined in a fairly arbitrary and fickle way.
it’s always cringy to do something that non-subtly signals how much you’re a part of an in-group
No Lukas, that’s false. For instance, I sometimes let people know that I went to music school for 7 years and have lots of music school friends, which comes along with the (true) implication that I’m part of an in-group of musicians — an in-group that I’ve dedicated a chunk of my life to — and normally the reaction either one of disinterest, or one of interest and enthusiasm, but not cringe.
I used fashion as an example to argue that just because something has a reliable referent in the minds of a population at a given time, doesn’t mean it’s a property that isn’t largely content-free and determined in a fairly arbitrary and fickle way.
I think I understood that part.
No Lukas, that’s false. For instance, I sometimes let people know that I went to music school for 7 years and have lots of music school friends, which comes along with the (true) implication that I’m part of an in-group of musicians — an in-group that I’ve dedicated a chunk of my life to — and normally the reaction either one of disinterest, or one of interest and enthusiasm, but not cringe.
You’re right that this example doesn’t seem cringy. But if you shared a meme that said “seven ways you can tell someone went to music school” – that would be cringy.
So, my hypothesis is that cringiness is largely about signalling in-group membership in an “on the nose” way that only appeals to that in-group.
By contrast, saying “I went to music school for 7 years” is something you can make conversation with to someone who didn’t go to music school.
This pattern may not capture all instances of cringiness, but I think it captures quite a lot of it. And, like with “caring about fashion,” “caring about belonging of the in-group and bonding with other in-group members through cringiness” is an identifiable meta trait that people can pursue reliably even when the underlying signals keep changing.
Cringe is an emotion that really has no place on a rationality forum. The cringe should be examined first and subsequently buttressed by statements that justify the reader’s first line of defense.
But if you shared a meme that said “seven ways you can tell someone went to music school” – that would be cringy.
That wouldn’t seem cringy to me. Instead my reaction to it would be some mixture of affection and curiosity. Something like “oh I’m not part of this ingroup, but this meme is a way for them to connect over shared experiences and I can certainly relate to bonding with people through shared experiences; probably seeing this meme will make some former music school people happy and I feel glad for them. I’m curious about the kinds of unique experiences that people who went to music school had and I haven’t had, maybe this meme will help me understand some of those”.
If I’m reading this right, you object to Jensen’s initial comment that uses “cringy” and that your objection is largely due to the fact that “cringy” is a property mostly about the observer (as opposed to the thing itself).
Do you think the same is true of “mind-killy” from logan’s comment?
This seems hypocritical to me. I think that your real objection is something else, possibly that you just really don’t like “cringy” for some other reason (perhaps you cringe at its usage?)
(I wrote a bunch more words but deleted them—let’s see how nondefensive {offensive?} writing works out for me).
No, I would agree with Logan that calling something “cringy” is mindkilly, since it instills a strong sense of defensiveness in the accused. I’m not even sure that the cringiness I felt was rooted in the fact the post seemed fake, but it was real nonetheless. For this particular post, it seems that the average lesswronger doesn’t think it seems cringy but I doubt I am alone in thinking this way.
So, I find it very stupid to downvote an expression of an aesthetic/tonal preference, which is why I strong-upvoted this comment to restore normalcy (to +2). This is what two-axis voting is for!
Do people feel the comparisons are needlessly inflammatory? Because I don’t. They’re probably apt descriptions of what Jensen pattern-matches this post to.
i downvoted Jensen’s comment because i think “this is cringy” is a super extra mind-killy sort of concept and i want less of it around.
Yeah, I think “cringing” is something a person does, and is not a property of a thing itself, and to impart it as a property of the thing itself is to commit the mind-projection fallacy.
I think the interrater reliability of “cringyness” would be surprisingly high.
Not a crux for me! What’s “fashionable” amongst a group also has strong reliability, yet what’s “fashionable” is something that radically changes very quickly and is primarily a fact about what the people have currently determined is fashionable, and not a fact about the piece of creative work that they’re looking at.
Not to mention that one’s ability to correctly identify how the word ought to be applied is not the same thing as endorsement; there are studies showing that e.g. everyone can identify the “popular” kids, and there’s tremendous interrater reliability on that identification, and yet this is utterly uncorrelated with who those same raters say they actually like or want to spend time with.
I think “cringy” isn’t analogous to “fashionable.” Instead, I would say “cringy” is analogous to “acting so as to care about what’s fashionable.”
Yes, it might change what action specifically is cringy. But it’s always cringy to do something that non-subtly signals how much you’re a part of an in-group.
Used that way, it’s not mind-killing at all to make people aware that they’re signalling in-groupiness in a non-subtle way and therefore predictably turning off lots of people.
You’re misreading me denotationally if you think I said that cringey and fashionable are the same. I used fashion as an example to argue that just because something has a reliable referent in the minds of a population at a given time, doesn’t mean it’s a property that isn’t largely content-free and determined in a fairly arbitrary and fickle way.
No Lukas, that’s false. For instance, I sometimes let people know that I went to music school for 7 years and have lots of music school friends, which comes along with the (true) implication that I’m part of an in-group of musicians — an in-group that I’ve dedicated a chunk of my life to — and normally the reaction either one of disinterest, or one of interest and enthusiasm, but not cringe.
I think I understood that part.
You’re right that this example doesn’t seem cringy. But if you shared a meme that said “seven ways you can tell someone went to music school” – that would be cringy.
So, my hypothesis is that cringiness is largely about signalling in-group membership in an “on the nose” way that only appeals to that in-group.
By contrast, saying “I went to music school for 7 years” is something you can make conversation with to someone who didn’t go to music school.
This pattern may not capture all instances of cringiness, but I think it captures quite a lot of it. And, like with “caring about fashion,” “caring about belonging of the in-group and bonding with other in-group members through cringiness” is an identifiable meta trait that people can pursue reliably even when the underlying signals keep changing.
Cringe is an emotion that really has no place on a rationality forum. The cringe should be examined first and subsequently buttressed by statements that justify the reader’s first line of defense.
That wouldn’t seem cringy to me. Instead my reaction to it would be some mixture of affection and curiosity. Something like “oh I’m not part of this ingroup, but this meme is a way for them to connect over shared experiences and I can certainly relate to bonding with people through shared experiences; probably seeing this meme will make some former music school people happy and I feel glad for them. I’m curious about the kinds of unique experiences that people who went to music school had and I haven’t had, maybe this meme will help me understand some of those”.
If I’m reading this right, you object to Jensen’s initial comment that uses “cringy” and that your objection is largely due to the fact that “cringy” is a property mostly about the observer (as opposed to the thing itself).
Do you think the same is true of “mind-killy” from logan’s comment?
This seems hypocritical to me. I think that your real objection is something else, possibly that you just really don’t like “cringy” for some other reason (perhaps you cringe at its usage?)
(I wrote a bunch more words but deleted them—let’s see how nondefensive {offensive?} writing works out for me).
No, I would agree with Logan that calling something “cringy” is mindkilly, since it instills a strong sense of defensiveness in the accused. I’m not even sure that the cringiness I felt was rooted in the fact the post seemed fake, but it was real nonetheless. For this particular post, it seems that the average lesswronger doesn’t think it seems cringy but I doubt I am alone in thinking this way.