there are people who don’t believe uploads are conscious, and also don’t believe being conscious (or not conscious) causes someone to talk (or not talk) about consciousness. if they think Logical Argument X proves uploads are not conscious then an upload of them would also believe that argument, at least according to people holding that view (otherwise they would have to concede that an upload’s observation of their own consciousness changes their actions)
in other words, a p-zombie can observe being an upload even though they can’t observe whether or not they’re conscious (according to people who believe in p-zombies in that way)
I can’t pass an ITT for such people, but I’d expect that if uploaded, they’d claim to still have consciousnessness. Their current stated beliefs are about others, not themselves. I have yet to encounter anyone who claims to have experienced p-zombiehood (and indeed, the theory would make it nonsensical to do so).
My body has apparently gone through something similar to p-zombiehood at least once.
I don’t recall any experience of the time interval (some minutes I heard), but I was reported to have been awake and alert and conversing and able to do mental arithmetic. Then I lay down and some minutes later sat up again, from which point I do recall experiencing normally but with no memory of any of the prior activity.
Alternatively I just had some memory loss that has never been recovered but with no other identifiable long-term effects. I was recently out of anesthetic at the time, so both explanations seem reasonably viable.
Remnant effects from the anesthetic could have impaired medium-term (order of minutes) and long-term memory formation without impairing short-term memory (enough to allow me to reply to speech etc). Or equally well could have impaired whatever underlies consciousness or its connection with the body, and there was no actual experience to remember.
Why do you think this was zombie hood, as opposed to “just” memory loss/alteration? It would seem just as reasonable to believe that you were experiencing qualia and consciousness during that time, but don’t remember it correctly.
That’s why I said “something similar to”, and “both explanations seem reasonably viable”. I can’t rule out either of them, and it’s not possible (even in principle) to distinguish them after the fact. Was there short-term memory but no memory of consciousness because there was no consciousness to remember (due to the effects of the drug known to cause loss of consciousness), or was there both consciousness and short-term memory but the drug prevented those from leaving any traces some minutes later?
I certainly don’t claim to know what consciousness is or how it works. I would by default expect that a true p-zombie that for some reason became conscious would still remember having thoughts and experiences from the time period in which they had been a p-zombie, but it doesn’t seem logically inconsistent that they might not.
Yeah, you might very well be right that they would change their mind. But presumably someone with that position would claim that they wouldn’t change their mind.
Right—so are we discussing what a (presumably) conscious human predicts about their upload experience, or are we predicting what they’d do/say if uploaded? I think they’re two different questions, and honestly have very low confidence that either one is very useful to any decisions or actions today.
That conditions on prior beliefs about whether uploads are conscious and whether consciousness is what causes you to talk about being conscious, not on whether the uploads are conscious.
i basically agree. i think uploads are conscious, so i think the belief that uploads are not conscious has to be caused by something else than “uploads not being conscious”
there are people who don’t believe uploads are conscious, and also don’t believe being conscious (or not conscious) causes someone to talk (or not talk) about consciousness. if they think Logical Argument X proves uploads are not conscious then an upload of them would also believe that argument, at least according to people holding that view (otherwise they would have to concede that an upload’s observation of their own consciousness changes their actions)
in other words, a p-zombie can observe being an upload even though they can’t observe whether or not they’re conscious (according to people who believe in p-zombies in that way)
I can’t pass an ITT for such people, but I’d expect that if uploaded, they’d claim to still have consciousnessness. Their current stated beliefs are about others, not themselves. I have yet to encounter anyone who claims to have experienced p-zombiehood (and indeed, the theory would make it nonsensical to do so).
My body has apparently gone through something similar to p-zombiehood at least once.
I don’t recall any experience of the time interval (some minutes I heard), but I was reported to have been awake and alert and conversing and able to do mental arithmetic. Then I lay down and some minutes later sat up again, from which point I do recall experiencing normally but with no memory of any of the prior activity.
Alternatively I just had some memory loss that has never been recovered but with no other identifiable long-term effects. I was recently out of anesthetic at the time, so both explanations seem reasonably viable.
Remnant effects from the anesthetic could have impaired medium-term (order of minutes) and long-term memory formation without impairing short-term memory (enough to allow me to reply to speech etc). Or equally well could have impaired whatever underlies consciousness or its connection with the body, and there was no actual experience to remember.
Why do you think this was zombie hood, as opposed to “just” memory loss/alteration? It would seem just as reasonable to believe that you were experiencing qualia and consciousness during that time, but don’t remember it correctly.
That’s why I said “something similar to”, and “both explanations seem reasonably viable”. I can’t rule out either of them, and it’s not possible (even in principle) to distinguish them after the fact. Was there short-term memory but no memory of consciousness because there was no consciousness to remember (due to the effects of the drug known to cause loss of consciousness), or was there both consciousness and short-term memory but the drug prevented those from leaving any traces some minutes later?
I certainly don’t claim to know what consciousness is or how it works. I would by default expect that a true p-zombie that for some reason became conscious would still remember having thoughts and experiences from the time period in which they had been a p-zombie, but it doesn’t seem logically inconsistent that they might not.
Yeah, you might very well be right that they would change their mind. But presumably someone with that position would claim that they wouldn’t change their mind.
Right—so are we discussing what a (presumably) conscious human predicts about their upload experience, or are we predicting what they’d do/say if uploaded? I think they’re two different questions, and honestly have very low confidence that either one is very useful to any decisions or actions today.
both are interesting to me but fair enough!
That conditions on prior beliefs about whether uploads are conscious and whether consciousness is what causes you to talk about being conscious, not on whether the uploads are conscious.
i basically agree. i think uploads are conscious, so i think the belief that uploads are not conscious has to be caused by something else than “uploads not being conscious”