To address the Big Bad Threads problem specifically (as opposed to other problems), what we need is ability to close threads in some sense, but not necessarily as a side effect of voting on individual comments.
For example, moderators could be given the power to declare a thread (or a post) a Toll Thread, so that making a comment within that thread would start costing 5 Karma or something like that, irrespective of what you reply to or what the properties of your user account are. This would work like a mild variant of the standard (but not on LW) closed thread feature.
Nesov, you are a particularly active and helpful moderator. I’m less familiar with how much effort is invested by other moderators. I believe you could do this well, but I’m not sure this solution can be scaled, or even run without you (right now).
I’m active (I read literally everything on Less Wrong, or at least skim) but I’m timid. I don’t know what I am and am not supposed to be banning/editing, so I confine banning to spam and editing to obvious errors of formatting or spelling/grammar.
In June I asked Eliezer for moderation guidelines, since there has been an uptick in trolling or just timewasting poorly-informed ranters, but he just said that he thought it needed a software fix (the recent controversial one).
ETA: I should clarify that I like Will Newsome in person, but on Less Wrong his comments very often seem to be deliberately obscurantist, unhelpful, and misleading.
You’re right. It seems silly to say that nothing, with emphasis, will stop Will when banning him and any obvious sockpuppets hasn’t even been tried. (This isn’t particularly advocating that course of action, just agreeing that Luke’s prediction is absurd.)
“Ostracize” does not work well online. You don’t get direct feedback on how many people read what. (Even the downvotes are evidence that someone did read the comment, and expended some of their energy to downvote it—which supposedly is part of what the trolls want.)
There is no online equivalent of a group turning their backs on someone in ice-cold silence. Just “not answering” is not the same thing… that happens to many normal comments too.
Will Newsome earned his karma, and he is now entitled to spend it as he pleases. Any interference with that right would be dishonorable, a moral breach of contractual obligation. Libeling him as a SuperTroll is scarcely better; posting provocative comments does not make a troll simply because it’s mildly annoying. A malicious or disruptive intent in required, and that’s patently absent.
[A few months ago, Will Newsome corrected E.Y.’s definition of “troll”; E.Y. called one Loosemore a troll on account of the latter’s being a liar (which he was even less than a troll). Correcting E.Y. turned Will Newsome into something of an overnight authority on the definition of “troll.” This is unfortunate, since Will’s understanding shows itself a bit defective when it faces sterner tests than Loosemore. Newsome is more trollish than Loosemore, but Newsome is no troll.)
I strongly disagree. As far as I am aware, there is no contract between Will Newsome and LessWrong/the SI/FHI/CFAR that states that he is entitled to do whatever he likes. In fact, per community norms, the opposite is true. The claim that he is a SuperTroll seems to be self-evidently true, and is almost certainly not libel, as Will Newsome has done his best to encourage the idea that he is a troll, and possibly even began this view. (Consent is usually considered a defense against libel.) Newsome also seems to have disruptive intent- he’s explicitly stated that he’s trying to burn his credibility as fast as possible. So, the mods have fairly solid reasons for moving against him- at present rates, it’ll take ~27 months for him to burn through the rest of his karma, which is far too long.
The distinction between “toll threads” and “closed threads” was an attempt to make the action easier, bear less responsibility and provoke less agitation if applied in controversial cases (it could be un-applied by a moderator as well), so that the button could be more easily given to more people.
Right now the only tool anyone has is the banhammer that either destroys a post with all its comments completely (something I strongly disapprove of being at all possible, but my discussion in the tickets didn’t evoke much support) or needs to be applied in a whac-a-mole manner to each new comment, and neither decision should be made lightly. Since there are no milder measures, nothing at all can be done in milder or more controversial cases. I don’t believe there is much of a fixable-by-moderation signal-to-noise problem right now except for the occasional big bad threads, so most of the motivation for this tool is to make their inhibition more effective than it currently is. Since big bad threads are rare, you don’t need a lot of moderators to address them.
(It’s probably not worth the effort to implement it right now, so bringing it up is mostly motivated as being what I see as a better alternative to the punish-all-subcomments-automatically measure Eliezer was suggesting, although I still expect the current punish-direct-replies to suffice on its own.)
Why vote down this simple question? Is it a point of sensitivity—sufficient to drive Nesov to the passive voice? Don’t other readers want to know who decides forum policies?
To address the Big Bad Threads problem specifically (as opposed to other problems), what we need is ability to close threads in some sense, but not necessarily as a side effect of voting on individual comments.
For example, moderators could be given the power to declare a thread (or a post) a Toll Thread, so that making a comment within that thread would start costing 5 Karma or something like that, irrespective of what you reply to or what the properties of your user account are. This would work like a mild variant of the standard (but not on LW) closed thread feature.
Nesov, you are a particularly active and helpful moderator. I’m less familiar with how much effort is invested by other moderators. I believe you could do this well, but I’m not sure this solution can be scaled, or even run without you (right now).
I’m active (I read literally everything on Less Wrong, or at least skim) but I’m timid. I don’t know what I am and am not supposed to be banning/editing, so I confine banning to spam and editing to obvious errors of formatting or spelling/grammar.
In June I asked Eliezer for moderation guidelines, since there has been an uptick in trolling or just timewasting poorly-informed ranters, but he just said that he thought it needed a software fix (the recent controversial one).
Thanks for your contributions. I scanned this whole thread and am talking to Eliezer about possible solutions. Right now the troll toll isn’t enough, but maybe that’s because nothing will deter a SuperTroll like Will Newsome.
ETA: I should clarify that I like Will Newsome in person, but on Less Wrong his comments very often seem to be deliberately obscurantist, unhelpful, and misleading.
You don’t deter SuperTrolls. You ban them and move on. This is a very simple problem that you guys are vastly over-complicating.
Ban him and ostracize him socially.
You’re right. It seems silly to say that nothing, with emphasis, will stop Will when banning him and any obvious sockpuppets hasn’t even been tried. (This isn’t particularly advocating that course of action, just agreeing that Luke’s prediction is absurd.)
“Ostracize” does not work well online. You don’t get direct feedback on how many people read what. (Even the downvotes are evidence that someone did read the comment, and expended some of their energy to downvote it—which supposedly is part of what the trolls want.)
There is no online equivalent of a group turning their backs on someone in ice-cold silence. Just “not answering” is not the same thing… that happens to many normal comments too.
As far as I can tell Will Newsome hangs out in Berkely with SI folks.
Newsome a SuperTroll? Do you really think Newsome contributes less, substantively, than, say, you?
Will Newsome earned his karma, and he is now entitled to spend it as he pleases. Any interference with that right would be dishonorable, a moral breach of contractual obligation. Libeling him as a SuperTroll is scarcely better; posting provocative comments does not make a troll simply because it’s mildly annoying. A malicious or disruptive intent in required, and that’s patently absent.
[A few months ago, Will Newsome corrected E.Y.’s definition of “troll”; E.Y. called one Loosemore a troll on account of the latter’s being a liar (which he was even less than a troll). Correcting E.Y. turned Will Newsome into something of an overnight authority on the definition of “troll.” This is unfortunate, since Will’s understanding shows itself a bit defective when it faces sterner tests than Loosemore. Newsome is more trollish than Loosemore, but Newsome is no troll.)
I strongly disagree. As far as I am aware, there is no contract between Will Newsome and LessWrong/the SI/FHI/CFAR that states that he is entitled to do whatever he likes. In fact, per community norms, the opposite is true. The claim that he is a SuperTroll seems to be self-evidently true, and is almost certainly not libel, as Will Newsome has done his best to encourage the idea that he is a troll, and possibly even began this view. (Consent is usually considered a defense against libel.) Newsome also seems to have disruptive intent- he’s explicitly stated that he’s trying to burn his credibility as fast as possible. So, the mods have fairly solid reasons for moving against him- at present rates, it’ll take ~27 months for him to burn through the rest of his karma, which is far too long.
The distinction between “toll threads” and “closed threads” was an attempt to make the action easier, bear less responsibility and provoke less agitation if applied in controversial cases (it could be un-applied by a moderator as well), so that the button could be more easily given to more people.
Right now the only tool anyone has is the banhammer that either destroys a post with all its comments completely (something I strongly disapprove of being at all possible, but my discussion in the tickets didn’t evoke much support) or needs to be applied in a whac-a-mole manner to each new comment, and neither decision should be made lightly. Since there are no milder measures, nothing at all can be done in milder or more controversial cases. I don’t believe there is much of a fixable-by-moderation signal-to-noise problem right now except for the occasional big bad threads, so most of the motivation for this tool is to make their inhibition more effective than it currently is. Since big bad threads are rare, you don’t need a lot of moderators to address them.
(It’s probably not worth the effort to implement it right now, so bringing it up is mostly motivated as being what I see as a better alternative to the punish-all-subcomments-automatically measure Eliezer was suggesting, although I still expect the current punish-direct-replies to suffice on its own.)
By whom?
Why vote down this simple question? Is it a point of sensitivity—sufficient to drive Nesov to the passive voice? Don’t other readers want to know who decides forum policies?