I’m active (I read literally everything on Less Wrong, or at least skim) but I’m timid. I don’t know what I am and am not supposed to be banning/editing, so I confine banning to spam and editing to obvious errors of formatting or spelling/grammar.
In June I asked Eliezer for moderation guidelines, since there has been an uptick in trolling or just timewasting poorly-informed ranters, but he just said that he thought it needed a software fix (the recent controversial one).
ETA: I should clarify that I like Will Newsome in person, but on Less Wrong his comments very often seem to be deliberately obscurantist, unhelpful, and misleading.
You’re right. It seems silly to say that nothing, with emphasis, will stop Will when banning him and any obvious sockpuppets hasn’t even been tried. (This isn’t particularly advocating that course of action, just agreeing that Luke’s prediction is absurd.)
“Ostracize” does not work well online. You don’t get direct feedback on how many people read what. (Even the downvotes are evidence that someone did read the comment, and expended some of their energy to downvote it—which supposedly is part of what the trolls want.)
There is no online equivalent of a group turning their backs on someone in ice-cold silence. Just “not answering” is not the same thing… that happens to many normal comments too.
Will Newsome earned his karma, and he is now entitled to spend it as he pleases. Any interference with that right would be dishonorable, a moral breach of contractual obligation. Libeling him as a SuperTroll is scarcely better; posting provocative comments does not make a troll simply because it’s mildly annoying. A malicious or disruptive intent in required, and that’s patently absent.
[A few months ago, Will Newsome corrected E.Y.’s definition of “troll”; E.Y. called one Loosemore a troll on account of the latter’s being a liar (which he was even less than a troll). Correcting E.Y. turned Will Newsome into something of an overnight authority on the definition of “troll.” This is unfortunate, since Will’s understanding shows itself a bit defective when it faces sterner tests than Loosemore. Newsome is more trollish than Loosemore, but Newsome is no troll.)
I strongly disagree. As far as I am aware, there is no contract between Will Newsome and LessWrong/the SI/FHI/CFAR that states that he is entitled to do whatever he likes. In fact, per community norms, the opposite is true. The claim that he is a SuperTroll seems to be self-evidently true, and is almost certainly not libel, as Will Newsome has done his best to encourage the idea that he is a troll, and possibly even began this view. (Consent is usually considered a defense against libel.) Newsome also seems to have disruptive intent- he’s explicitly stated that he’s trying to burn his credibility as fast as possible. So, the mods have fairly solid reasons for moving against him- at present rates, it’ll take ~27 months for him to burn through the rest of his karma, which is far too long.
I’m active (I read literally everything on Less Wrong, or at least skim) but I’m timid. I don’t know what I am and am not supposed to be banning/editing, so I confine banning to spam and editing to obvious errors of formatting or spelling/grammar.
In June I asked Eliezer for moderation guidelines, since there has been an uptick in trolling or just timewasting poorly-informed ranters, but he just said that he thought it needed a software fix (the recent controversial one).
Thanks for your contributions. I scanned this whole thread and am talking to Eliezer about possible solutions. Right now the troll toll isn’t enough, but maybe that’s because nothing will deter a SuperTroll like Will Newsome.
ETA: I should clarify that I like Will Newsome in person, but on Less Wrong his comments very often seem to be deliberately obscurantist, unhelpful, and misleading.
You don’t deter SuperTrolls. You ban them and move on. This is a very simple problem that you guys are vastly over-complicating.
Ban him and ostracize him socially.
You’re right. It seems silly to say that nothing, with emphasis, will stop Will when banning him and any obvious sockpuppets hasn’t even been tried. (This isn’t particularly advocating that course of action, just agreeing that Luke’s prediction is absurd.)
“Ostracize” does not work well online. You don’t get direct feedback on how many people read what. (Even the downvotes are evidence that someone did read the comment, and expended some of their energy to downvote it—which supposedly is part of what the trolls want.)
There is no online equivalent of a group turning their backs on someone in ice-cold silence. Just “not answering” is not the same thing… that happens to many normal comments too.
As far as I can tell Will Newsome hangs out in Berkely with SI folks.
Newsome a SuperTroll? Do you really think Newsome contributes less, substantively, than, say, you?
Will Newsome earned his karma, and he is now entitled to spend it as he pleases. Any interference with that right would be dishonorable, a moral breach of contractual obligation. Libeling him as a SuperTroll is scarcely better; posting provocative comments does not make a troll simply because it’s mildly annoying. A malicious or disruptive intent in required, and that’s patently absent.
[A few months ago, Will Newsome corrected E.Y.’s definition of “troll”; E.Y. called one Loosemore a troll on account of the latter’s being a liar (which he was even less than a troll). Correcting E.Y. turned Will Newsome into something of an overnight authority on the definition of “troll.” This is unfortunate, since Will’s understanding shows itself a bit defective when it faces sterner tests than Loosemore. Newsome is more trollish than Loosemore, but Newsome is no troll.)
I strongly disagree. As far as I am aware, there is no contract between Will Newsome and LessWrong/the SI/FHI/CFAR that states that he is entitled to do whatever he likes. In fact, per community norms, the opposite is true. The claim that he is a SuperTroll seems to be self-evidently true, and is almost certainly not libel, as Will Newsome has done his best to encourage the idea that he is a troll, and possibly even began this view. (Consent is usually considered a defense against libel.) Newsome also seems to have disruptive intent- he’s explicitly stated that he’s trying to burn his credibility as fast as possible. So, the mods have fairly solid reasons for moving against him- at present rates, it’ll take ~27 months for him to burn through the rest of his karma, which is far too long.