Look, I don’t like dealing with the sort of stuff I called “deep nonconsent” in this post. Sure, I’m quite kinky in bed, but in the rest of the mating process?
I believe you, but I also find the conjunction of [your kinks] and [choosing the ‘nonconsent’ frame/terminology] interesting, and would guess that it’s not a coincidence. In particular, I believe I’ve observed across people that [things like the former] are associated with [biases and blind-spots-biasing toward things like the latter].
(And I feel like ‘nonconsent’ as frame/terminology is strained at best, and… bad, muddled in a worrying way, in a way that rhymes with what t.g.t.a. is saying.)
Another I played with was e.g. “blame avoidance”, i.e. something-like-ladybrain really wants any dating/sex to happen in a way which is “not her fault”. That seems to mostly generate the same predictions.
Do you think it has some disadvantage, such that you didn’t choose to mention it at all in the OP?
So yeah, I am totally ready to believe there’s some other nearby generator, and if you have one which also better explains some additional things then please state it I want to know it.
A very nearby guess: women tending to prefer a ‘patient’ role in dating/mating, and/or tending to prefer men who take and are good at an ‘agent’ role — this has broader explanatory power for common male/female roles and attraction patterns.
(But also all the things you’re talking about, while anecdotally real, seem at least less broadly/strongly true to me than they do to you; women sending inexplicit-and-deniable-but-strong signals of interest seems more common and not a turnoff; flirting seems more symmetrical (not predicted by either of these models); etc.)
“Another I played with was e.g. “blame avoidance”, i.e. something-like-ladybrain really wants any dating/sex to happen in a way which is “not her fault”. That seems to mostly generate the same predictions.”
Do you think it has some disadvantage, such that you didn’t choose to mention it at all in the OP?
“Blame avoidance” seems like a candidate generator of deep nonconsent preference: if one never consents to anything that’s going on, then one is not to blame for any of it (or so goes the story). There are other generators one could imagine as well—e.g. Elizabeth hypothesized elsethread ‘women are scared men will get angry if they go from “yes” to “no”, in a way they won’t if the woman goes from “----” to “no”, so women delay being explicit until they have all the information’. That’s another hypothesis for what might generate deep nonconsent preference.
I settled on the term “deep nonconsent preference” because that seemed like the most direct description of the behavior-cluster, while assuming the least about what generates that behavior. I did not think (and still don’t think) I had enough information to nail down a primary generator of the behavior.
I believe you, but I also find the conjunction of [your kinks] and [choosing the ‘nonconsent’ frame/terminology] interesting, and would guess that it’s not a coincidence. In particular, I believe I’ve observed across people that [things like the former] are associated with [biases and blind-spots-biasing toward things like the latter].
(And I feel like ‘nonconsent’ as frame/terminology is strained at best, and… bad, muddled in a worrying way, in a way that rhymes with what t.g.t.a. is saying.)
Do you think it has some disadvantage, such that you didn’t choose to mention it at all in the OP?
A very nearby guess: women tending to prefer a ‘patient’ role in dating/mating, and/or tending to prefer men who take and are good at an ‘agent’ role — this has broader explanatory power for common male/female roles and attraction patterns.
(But also all the things you’re talking about, while anecdotally real, seem at least less broadly/strongly true to me than they do to you; women sending inexplicit-and-deniable-but-strong signals of interest seems more common and not a turnoff; flirting seems more symmetrical (not predicted by either of these models); etc.)
“Blame avoidance” seems like a candidate generator of deep nonconsent preference: if one never consents to anything that’s going on, then one is not to blame for any of it (or so goes the story). There are other generators one could imagine as well—e.g. Elizabeth hypothesized elsethread ‘women are scared men will get angry if they go from “yes” to “no”, in a way they won’t if the woman goes from “----” to “no”, so women delay being explicit until they have all the information’. That’s another hypothesis for what might generate deep nonconsent preference.
I settled on the term “deep nonconsent preference” because that seemed like the most direct description of the behavior-cluster, while assuming the least about what generates that behavior. I did not think (and still don’t think) I had enough information to nail down a primary generator of the behavior.