I agree this can be annoying, on the other hand someone with an outside view can notice things about us that we ourselves might not. Remember, the fundamental attribution error goes both ways.
Actually, it was helpful. Rereading my comment I noticed it sounds like I’m trying to say that on the whole the boyfriends’ behavior is positive; whereas, I meant to imply that it’s mostly negative, but occasionally has redeeming features.
I annoy my partner with this sort of thing regularly. Perhaps I should stop. On the other hand, there have been several times in my life when other people (therapists, relatives, friends) more accurately assessed my behavior than I did at the time. Just because this behavior is annoying doesn’t mean that the person doing it is incorrect. I don’t buy the “How could you possibly know me better than I know myself” argument.
My tentative take is that it’s less annoying if you have specific evidence rather than a general principle that people can’t really be like that. Or possibly if you say something like, “I’m surprised—what do you have in mind?”.
He probably did find it annoying, though I can’t imagine that comment working the way you intended. His main justification for “biting the bullet” is going to be that biases could hinder a useful analysis. In this case, useful analysis is the thing that lets a person pause and think “this person isn’t just against me., he’s trying to tell me something”. Since you didn’t provide a useful analysis of why he didn’t actually believe that, you managed to annoy him without actually demonstrating that annoyance is a valid response.
The disregard of annoyance as a valid response can be attributed to people at LW being encouraged to ignore their own emotions in situations like above, based on the idea that most misunderstandings are based on emotional biases that cloud proper thinking.
you managed to annoy him without actually demonstrating that annoyance is a valid response.
Disagree. When Eugine reads the first sentence of what I said above, he’s going to be annoyed whether or not I follow up the sentence with an explanation. It was an annoying sentence.
It is good to try not to be affected by the emotional valence of statements, but it is also good to recognize that your statements have emotional valences (and that you can control these). We should optimize for making [helpful comments] and making [comments that give other people the opportunity to test their ability to resist letting emotional biases cloud their judgment] separately.
I agree with this. I find about 50% (very rough estimate) of the time when I say “I think this is what is going on in my head” and my OH disagrees, he’s right and I’m wrong. I usually to have a strong tendency to rationalise, and I don’t think I’d be close to how successful I am with Alicorn-style luminosity without that sort of outside input (though admittedly I’m still pretty bad—that stuff is hard!). I reciprocate when he introspects as well.
I do still find it annoying and instinctively argue back, but results spoke for themselves when I turned out to be wrong, and now I welcome it as an overall positive-utility interaction even though it still annoys me on an instinctive level.
I don’t think I’d be close to how successful I am with Alicorn-style luminosity without that sort of outside input
This nicely dovetails with Alicorn’s luminosity origin story: people in her life refused to believe claims about her own mental states, and this experience was so intolerable that she resolved to become an obvious expert on mental states. Now the circle is… complete?
I agree that this happens but I think it’s not nice to point it out unless the user has specifically requested it? If you think it’s important to point out, then starting with questions and asking permission to offer input are more respectful and effective ways to communicate
For example, I will sometimes respond to a direct question about feelings or emotional states, and people will jump in to tell me I am rationalitying wrong. Even though I made no mention of how I handled that emotional state or what my actions were! I was just reporting on the initial situation. It’s in those times that people usually just tell me to think/do what I usually do and it’s arrogant and not particularly insightful. =/
I can’t speak for your experience in this case, but this is, after all, a rationality/unbiasing site. If they think you’re Doing It Wrong, then it’s not exactly offtopic to point it out.
On the other hand, people who offer correction (and offering correction can be a very strong motivation) should consider how much evidence they’re got that they’re addressing a real problem.
Very true. As I said, I can’t speak for your experience of this, I’m just pointing out that it’s not exactly a non-sequiter. It may well have been rude and/or based on insufficient evidence, of course.
Nono, you’re right. But I think it’s not just rude but also a failure to wait before proposing solutions, which is all sorts of useful in general. This is a good context to practice in!
I wish LW had a bit more of a handshake culture where we try to converge to a common phrasing to describe a topic before we actually try to discuss it. Something like
Do I understand you are saying [paraphrase]?
Sort of, but I also mean [original paraphrase with additional, necessary detail].
[ … ]
I was going to say that [initial phrase] demonstrates [this tricky bias] but since you pointed out [necessary detail] then I guess it could have been [this other thing].
This allows the first person to demonstrate their reasoning about what they initially wanted to say, but also consider the actual problem, as well as gauge how far off their initial guess was. And then the other person doesn’t feel misunderstood, so they’re motivated to continue the conversation instead of just not replying.
I agree this can be annoying, on the other hand someone with an outside view can notice things about us that we ourselves might not. Remember, the fundamental attribution error goes both ways.
I don’t believe that you believe this. (See? Wasn’t that annoying?)
Actually, it was helpful. Rereading my comment I noticed it sounds like I’m trying to say that on the whole the boyfriends’ behavior is positive; whereas, I meant to imply that it’s mostly negative, but occasionally has redeeming features.
I annoy my partner with this sort of thing regularly. Perhaps I should stop. On the other hand, there have been several times in my life when other people (therapists, relatives, friends) more accurately assessed my behavior than I did at the time. Just because this behavior is annoying doesn’t mean that the person doing it is incorrect. I don’t buy the “How could you possibly know me better than I know myself” argument.
Agreed. But just because it might be correct doesn’t mean it isn’t annoying (which is the point I’m trying to make).
My tentative take is that it’s less annoying if you have specific evidence rather than a general principle that people can’t really be like that. Or possibly if you say something like, “I’m surprised—what do you have in mind?”.
He probably did find it annoying, though I can’t imagine that comment working the way you intended. His main justification for “biting the bullet” is going to be that biases could hinder a useful analysis. In this case, useful analysis is the thing that lets a person pause and think “this person isn’t just against me., he’s trying to tell me something”. Since you didn’t provide a useful analysis of why he didn’t actually believe that, you managed to annoy him without actually demonstrating that annoyance is a valid response.
The disregard of annoyance as a valid response can be attributed to people at LW being encouraged to ignore their own emotions in situations like above, based on the idea that most misunderstandings are based on emotional biases that cloud proper thinking.
Disagree. When Eugine reads the first sentence of what I said above, he’s going to be annoyed whether or not I follow up the sentence with an explanation. It was an annoying sentence.
It is good to try not to be affected by the emotional valence of statements, but it is also good to recognize that your statements have emotional valences (and that you can control these). We should optimize for making [helpful comments] and making [comments that give other people the opportunity to test their ability to resist letting emotional biases cloud their judgment] separately.
So it was an explanation-by-demonstration.
I agree with this. I find about 50% (very rough estimate) of the time when I say “I think this is what is going on in my head” and my OH disagrees, he’s right and I’m wrong. I usually to have a strong tendency to rationalise, and I don’t think I’d be close to how successful I am with Alicorn-style luminosity without that sort of outside input (though admittedly I’m still pretty bad—that stuff is hard!). I reciprocate when he introspects as well.
I do still find it annoying and instinctively argue back, but results spoke for themselves when I turned out to be wrong, and now I welcome it as an overall positive-utility interaction even though it still annoys me on an instinctive level.
This nicely dovetails with Alicorn’s luminosity origin story: people in her life refused to believe claims about her own mental states, and this experience was so intolerable that she resolved to become an obvious expert on mental states. Now the circle is… complete?
I agree that this happens but I think it’s not nice to point it out unless the user has specifically requested it? If you think it’s important to point out, then starting with questions and asking permission to offer input are more respectful and effective ways to communicate
For example, I will sometimes respond to a direct question about feelings or emotional states, and people will jump in to tell me I am rationalitying wrong. Even though I made no mention of how I handled that emotional state or what my actions were! I was just reporting on the initial situation. It’s in those times that people usually just tell me to think/do what I usually do and it’s arrogant and not particularly insightful. =/
I can’t speak for your experience in this case, but this is, after all, a rationality/unbiasing site. If they think you’re Doing It Wrong, then it’s not exactly offtopic to point it out.
On the other hand, people who offer correction (and offering correction can be a very strong motivation) should consider how much evidence they’re got that they’re addressing a real problem.
Or that they’re addressing it in a way that is likely to motivate the person to correct it!
Very true. As I said, I can’t speak for your experience of this, I’m just pointing out that it’s not exactly a non-sequiter. It may well have been rude and/or based on insufficient evidence, of course.
Nono, you’re right. But I think it’s not just rude but also a failure to wait before proposing solutions, which is all sorts of useful in general. This is a good context to practice in!
You know, you’re absolutely right. Upvoted.
I wish LW had a bit more of a handshake culture where we try to converge to a common phrasing to describe a topic before we actually try to discuss it. Something like
This allows the first person to demonstrate their reasoning about what they initially wanted to say, but also consider the actual problem, as well as gauge how far off their initial guess was. And then the other person doesn’t feel misunderstood, so they’re motivated to continue the conversation instead of just not replying.