Today, we have lost sight of how counter-intuitive it is to believe the earth is not flat. Its spherical shape has been discovered just once, in Athens in the fourth century BC. The earliest extant reference to it being a globe is found in Plato’s Phaedo, while Aristotle’s On the Heavens contains the first examination of the evidence. Everyone who has ever known the earth is round learnt it indirectly from Aristotle.
They were ultimately not successful, and the spherical-Earth theory only gained influence in China when Western texts were increasingly translated into Chinese more than two thousand years after the theory was originally invented.
Which makes it a good candidate for one of the most non-obvious / counterfactual theories in history.
I find this very hard to believe. Shouldn’t Chinese merchants have figured out eventually, traveling long distances using maps, that the Earth was a sphere? I wonder whether the “scholars” of ancient China actually represented the state-of-the-art practical knowledge that the Chinese had.
Nevertheless, I don’t think this is all that counterfactual. If you’re obsessed with measuring everything, and like to travel (like the Greeks), I think eventually you’ll have to discover this fact.
Merchants were a lot weaker in China than in Europe. Chinese merchants also did a lot less sea voyages due to geography.
If a bunch of low-status merchants believed that the Earth is a sphere it might not have influenced Chinese high-class beliefs in the same way as beliefs of political powerful merchants in Europe.
I see no reason to doubt that the article is accurate. Why would Chinese scholars completely miss the theory if it was obvious among merchants? There should in any case exist some records of it, some maps. Yet none exist. And why would it even be obvious that the Earth is a sphere from long distance travel alone?
Nevertheless, I don’t think this is all that counterfactual. If you’re obsessed with measuring everything, and like to travel (like the Greeks), I think eventually you’ll have to discover this fact.
I don’t think this makes sense. If the Chinese didn’t reinvent the theory in more than two thousand years, this makes it highly “counterfactual”. The longer a theory isn’t reinvented, the less obvious it must be.
Maybe it’s the other way around, and it’s the Chinese elite who was unusually and stubbornly conservative on this, trusting the wisdom of their ancestors over foreign devilry (would be a pretty Confucian thing to do). The Greeks realised the Earth was round from things like seeing sails appear over the horizon. Any sailing peoples thinking about this would have noticed sooner or later.
Kind of a long shot, but did Polynesian people have ideas on this, for example?
There is a large difference between sooner and later. Highly non-obvious ideas will be discovered later, not sooner. The fact that China didn’t rediscover the theory in more than two thousand years means that it the ability to sail the ocean didn’t make it obvious.
Kind of a long shot, but did Polynesian people have ideas on this, for example?
As far as we know, nobody did, except for early Greece. There is some uncertainty about India, but these sources are dated later and from a time when there was already some contact with Greece, so they may have learned it from them.
Well, it’s hard to tell because most other civilizations at the required level of wealth to discover this (by which I mean both sailing and surplus enough to have people who worry about the shape of the Earth at all) could one way or another have learned it via osmosis from Greece. If you only have essentially two examples, how do you tell whether it was the one who discovered it who was unusually observant rather than the one who didn’t who was unusually blind? But it’s an interesting question, it might indeed be a relatively accidental thing which for some reason was accepted sooner than you would have expected (after all, sails disappearing could be explained by an Earth that’s merely dome-shaped; the strongest evidence for a completely spherical shape was probably the fact that lunar eclipses feature always a perfect disc shaped shadow, and even that requires interpreting eclipses correctly, and having enough of them in the first place).
I don’t buy this, the curvedness of the sea is obvious to sailors, e.g. you see the tops of islands long before you see the beach, and indeed to anyone who has ever swum across a bay! Inland peoples might be able to believe the world is flat, but not anyone with boats.
What’s more likely: You being wrong about the obviousness of the sphere Earth theory to sailors, or the entire written record (which included information from people who had extensive access to the sea) of two thousand years of Chinese history and astronomy somehow ommitting the spherical Earth theory? Not to speak of other pre-Hellenistic seafaring cultures which also lack records of having discovered the sphere Earth theory.
That the earth is a sphere:
Thus begins “The Clash Between the Jesuits and Traditional Chinese Square-Earth Cosmology”. The article tells the dramatic story of how some Jesuits tried to establish the spherical-Earth theory in 16th century China, where it was still unknown, partly by creating an elaborate world map to gain the trust of the emperor.
They were ultimately not successful, and the spherical-Earth theory only gained influence in China when Western texts were increasingly translated into Chinese more than two thousand years after the theory was originally invented.
Which makes it a good candidate for one of the most non-obvious / counterfactual theories in history.
I find this very hard to believe. Shouldn’t Chinese merchants have figured out eventually, traveling long distances using maps, that the Earth was a sphere? I wonder whether the “scholars” of ancient China actually represented the state-of-the-art practical knowledge that the Chinese had.
Nevertheless, I don’t think this is all that counterfactual. If you’re obsessed with measuring everything, and like to travel (like the Greeks), I think eventually you’ll have to discover this fact.
Merchants were a lot weaker in China than in Europe. Chinese merchants also did a lot less sea voyages due to geography.
If a bunch of low-status merchants believed that the Earth is a sphere it might not have influenced Chinese high-class beliefs in the same way as beliefs of political powerful merchants in Europe.
I see no reason to doubt that the article is accurate. Why would Chinese scholars completely miss the theory if it was obvious among merchants? There should in any case exist some records of it, some maps. Yet none exist. And why would it even be obvious that the Earth is a sphere from long distance travel alone?
I don’t think this makes sense. If the Chinese didn’t reinvent the theory in more than two thousand years, this makes it highly “counterfactual”. The longer a theory isn’t reinvented, the less obvious it must be.
Maybe it’s the other way around, and it’s the Chinese elite who was unusually and stubbornly conservative on this, trusting the wisdom of their ancestors over foreign devilry (would be a pretty Confucian thing to do). The Greeks realised the Earth was round from things like seeing sails appear over the horizon. Any sailing peoples thinking about this would have noticed sooner or later.
Kind of a long shot, but did Polynesian people have ideas on this, for example?
There is a large difference between sooner and later. Highly non-obvious ideas will be discovered later, not sooner. The fact that China didn’t rediscover the theory in more than two thousand years means that it the ability to sail the ocean didn’t make it obvious.
As far as we know, nobody did, except for early Greece. There is some uncertainty about India, but these sources are dated later and from a time when there was already some contact with Greece, so they may have learned it from them.
Well, it’s hard to tell because most other civilizations at the required level of wealth to discover this (by which I mean both sailing and surplus enough to have people who worry about the shape of the Earth at all) could one way or another have learned it via osmosis from Greece. If you only have essentially two examples, how do you tell whether it was the one who discovered it who was unusually observant rather than the one who didn’t who was unusually blind? But it’s an interesting question, it might indeed be a relatively accidental thing which for some reason was accepted sooner than you would have expected (after all, sails disappearing could be explained by an Earth that’s merely dome-shaped; the strongest evidence for a completely spherical shape was probably the fact that lunar eclipses feature always a perfect disc shaped shadow, and even that requires interpreting eclipses correctly, and having enough of them in the first place).
I don’t buy this, the curvedness of the sea is obvious to sailors, e.g. you see the tops of islands long before you see the beach, and indeed to anyone who has ever swum across a bay! Inland peoples might be able to believe the world is flat, but not anyone with boats.
What’s more likely: You being wrong about the obviousness of the sphere Earth theory to sailors, or the entire written record (which included information from people who had extensive access to the sea) of two thousand years of Chinese history and astronomy somehow ommitting the spherical Earth theory? Not to speak of other pre-Hellenistic seafaring cultures which also lack records of having discovered the sphere Earth theory.