There’s a pretty significant difference here in my view—“carnists” are not a coherent group, not an ideology, they do not have an agenda (unless we’re talking about some very specific industry lobbyists who no doubt exist). They’re just people who don’t care and eat meat.
Ideological vegans (i.e. not people who just happen to not eat meat, but don’t really care either way) are a very specific ideological group, and especially if we qualify them like in this post (“EA vegan advocates”), we can talk about their collective traits.
TBF, the meat/dairy/egg industries are specific groups of people who work pretty hard to increase animal product consumption, and are much better resourced than vegan advocates. I can understand why animal advocacy would develop some pretty aggressive norms in the face of that, and for that reason I consider it kind of besides the point to go after them in the wider world. It would basically be demanding unilateral disarmament from the weaker side.
But the fact that the wider world is so confused there’s no point in pushing for truth is the point. EA needs to stay better than that, and part of that is deescalating the arms race when you’re inside its boundaries.
But the fact that the wider world is so confused there’s no point in pushing for truth is the point. EA needs to stay better than that, and part of that is deescalating the arms race when you’re inside its boundaries.
Agree with this. I mean I’m definitely not pushing back against your claims, I’m just pointing out the problem seems bigger than commonly understood.
Could you expand on why you think that it makes a significant difference?
E.g. if the goal is to model what epistemic distortions you might face, or to suggests directions of change for fewer distortions, then coherence is only of limited concern (a coherent group might be easier to change, but on the other hand it might also more easily coordinate to oppose change).
I’m not sure why you say they are not an ideology, at least under my model of ideology that I have developed for other purposes, they fit the definition (i.e. I believe carnism involves a set of correlated beliefs about life and society that fit together).
Also not sure what you mean by carnists not having an agenda, in my experience most carnists have an agenda of wanting to eat lots of cheap delicious animal flesh.
I tend to think of ideology as a continuum, rather than a strict binary. Like people tend to have varying degrees of belief and trust in the sides of a conflict, and various unique factors influencing their views, and this leads to a lot of shades of nuance that can’t really be captured with a binary carnist/not-carnist definition.
But I think there are still some correlated beliefs where you could e.g. take their first principal component as an operationalization of carnism. Some beliefs that might go into this, many of which I have encountered from carnists:
“People should be allowed to freely choose whether they want to eat factory-farmed meat or not.”
“Animals cannot suffer in any way that matters.”
“One should take an evolutionary perspective and realize that factory farming is actually good for animals. After all, if not for humans putting a lot of effort into farming them, they wouldn’t even exist at their current population levels.”
“People who do enough good things out of their own charity deserve to eat animals without concerning themselves with the moral implications.”
“People who design packaging for animal products ought to make it look aesthetically pleasing and comfortable.”
“It is offensive and unreasonable for people to claim that meat-eating is a horribly harmful habit.”
“Animals are made to be used by humans.”
“Consuming animal products like meat or milk is healthier than being strictly vegan.”
One could make a defense of some of the statements. For instance Elizabeth has made a to-me convincing defense of the last statement. I don’t think this is a bug in the definition of carnism, it just shows that some carnist beliefs can be good and true. One ought to be able to admit that ideology is real and matters while also being able to recognize that it’s not a black-and-white issue.
While I agree that there are notable differences between “vegans” and “carnists” in terms of group dynamics, I do not think that necessarily disagrees with the idea that carnists are anti-truthseeking.
“carnists” are not a coherent group, not an ideology, they do not have an agenda (unless we’re talking about some very specific industry lobbyists who no doubt exist). They’re just people who don’t care and eat meat.
It seems untrue that because carnists are not an organized physical group that has meetings and such, they are thereby incapable of having shared norms or ideas/memes. I think in some contexts it can make sense/be useful to refer to a group of people who are not coherent in the sense of explicitly “working together” or having shared newletters based around a subject or whatever. In some cases, it can make sense to refer to those people’s ideologies/norms.
Also, I disagree with the idea that carnists are inherently neutral on the subject of animals/meat. That is, they don’t “not care”. In general, they actively want to eat meat and would be against things that would stop this. That’s not “not caring”; it is “having an agenda”, just not one that opposes the current status quo. The fact that being pro-meat and “okay with factory farming” is the more dominant stance/assumed default in our current status quo doesn’t mean that it isn’t a legitimate position/belief that people could be said to hold. There are many examples of other memetic environments throughout history where the assumed default may not have looked like a “stance” or an “agenda” to the people who were used to it, but nonetheless represented certain ideological claims.
I don’t think something only becomes an “ideology” when it disagrees with the current dominant cultural ideas; some things that are culturally common and baked into people from birth can still absolutely be “ideology” in the way I am used to using it. If we disagree on that, then perhaps we could use a different term?
If nothing else, carnists share the ideological assumption that “eating meat is okay”. In practice, they often also share ideas about the surrounding philosophical questions and attitudes. I don’t think it is beyond the pale to say that they could share norms around truth-seeking as it relates to these questions and attitudes. It feels unnecessarily dismissive and perhaps implicitly status quoist to assume that: as a dominant, implicit meme of our culture “carnism” must be “neutral” and therefore does not come with/correlate with any norms surrounding how people think about/process questions related to animals/meat.
Carnism comes with as much ideology as veganism even if people aren’t as explicit in presenting it or if the typical carnist hasn’t put as much thought into it.
I do not really have any experience advocating publicly for veganism and I wouldn’t really know about which specific espistemic failure modes are common among carnists for these sorts of conversations, but I have seen plenty of people bend themselves out of shape persevering their own comfort and status quo, so it really doesn’t seem like a stretch to imagine that epistemic maladies may tend to present among carnists when the question of veganism comes up.
For one thing, I have personally seen carnists respond in intentionally hostile ways towards vegans/vegan messaging on several occasions. Partially this is because they see it as a threat to their ideas or their way of life or partially this is because veganism is a designated punching bag that you’re allowed to insult in a lot of places. Often times, these attacks draw on shared ideas about veganism/animals/morality that are common between “carnists”.
So, while I agree that there are very different group dynamics, I don’t think it makes sense to say that vegans hold ideologies and are capable of exhibiting certain epistemic behaviors, but that carnists, by virtue of not being a sufficiently coherent collection of individuals, could not have the same labels applied to them.
(edit: idk if i endorse comments like this, i was really stressed from the things being said in the comments here)
People who fund the torture of animals are not a coherent group, not an ideology, they do not have an agenda. People who don’t fund the torture of animals are a coherent group, an ideology, they have an agenda.
People who keep other people enslaved are not a coherent group, not an ideology, they do not have an agenda. People who seek to end slavery are a coherent group, an ideology, they have an agenda.
Normal people like me are not a coherent group, not an ideology, we do not have an agenda. Atypicals like you are a coherent group, an ideology, you have an agenda.
maybe a future, better, post-singularity version of yourself will understand how terribly alienating statements like this are. maybe that person will see just how out-of-frame you have kept the suffering of other life forms to think this way.
my agenda is that of a confused, tortured animal, crying out in pain. it is, at most, a convulsive reaction. in desperation, it grasps onto ‘instrumental rationality’ like the paws of one being pulled into rotating blades flail around them, looking for a hold to force themself back.
and it finds nothing, the suffering persists until the day the world ends.
i do endorse the actual meaning of what i wrote. it is not “insane” and to call it that is callous. i added the edit because i wasn’t sure if expressions of stress are productive. i think there’s a case to be made that they are when it clearly stems from some ongoing discursive pattern, so that others can know the pain that their words cause. especially given this hostile reaction.
---
deleted the rest of this. there’s no point for two alignment researchers to be fighting over oldworld violence. i hope this will make sense looking back.
There’s a pretty significant difference here in my view—“carnists” are not a coherent group, not an ideology, they do not have an agenda (unless we’re talking about some very specific industry lobbyists who no doubt exist). They’re just people who don’t care and eat meat.
Ideological vegans (i.e. not people who just happen to not eat meat, but don’t really care either way) are a very specific ideological group, and especially if we qualify them like in this post (“EA vegan advocates”), we can talk about their collective traits.
TBF, the meat/dairy/egg industries are specific groups of people who work pretty hard to increase animal product consumption, and are much better resourced than vegan advocates. I can understand why animal advocacy would develop some pretty aggressive norms in the face of that, and for that reason I consider it kind of besides the point to go after them in the wider world. It would basically be demanding unilateral disarmament from the weaker side.
But the fact that the wider world is so confused there’s no point in pushing for truth is the point. EA needs to stay better than that, and part of that is deescalating the arms race when you’re inside its boundaries.
Agree with this. I mean I’m definitely not pushing back against your claims, I’m just pointing out the problem seems bigger than commonly understood.
Could you expand on why you think that it makes a significant difference?
E.g. if the goal is to model what epistemic distortions you might face, or to suggests directions of change for fewer distortions, then coherence is only of limited concern (a coherent group might be easier to change, but on the other hand it might also more easily coordinate to oppose change).
I’m not sure why you say they are not an ideology, at least under my model of ideology that I have developed for other purposes, they fit the definition (i.e. I believe carnism involves a set of correlated beliefs about life and society that fit together).
Also not sure what you mean by carnists not having an agenda, in my experience most carnists have an agenda of wanting to eat lots of cheap delicious animal flesh.
Could you clarify who you are defining as carnists?
I tend to think of ideology as a continuum, rather than a strict binary. Like people tend to have varying degrees of belief and trust in the sides of a conflict, and various unique factors influencing their views, and this leads to a lot of shades of nuance that can’t really be captured with a binary carnist/not-carnist definition.
But I think there are still some correlated beliefs where you could e.g. take their first principal component as an operationalization of carnism. Some beliefs that might go into this, many of which I have encountered from carnists:
“People should be allowed to freely choose whether they want to eat factory-farmed meat or not.”
“Animals cannot suffer in any way that matters.”
“One should take an evolutionary perspective and realize that factory farming is actually good for animals. After all, if not for humans putting a lot of effort into farming them, they wouldn’t even exist at their current population levels.”
“People who do enough good things out of their own charity deserve to eat animals without concerning themselves with the moral implications.”
“People who design packaging for animal products ought to make it look aesthetically pleasing and comfortable.”
“It is offensive and unreasonable for people to claim that meat-eating is a horribly harmful habit.”
“Animals are made to be used by humans.”
“Consuming animal products like meat or milk is healthier than being strictly vegan.”
One could make a defense of some of the statements. For instance Elizabeth has made a to-me convincing defense of the last statement. I don’t think this is a bug in the definition of carnism, it just shows that some carnist beliefs can be good and true. One ought to be able to admit that ideology is real and matters while also being able to recognize that it’s not a black-and-white issue.
While I agree that there are notable differences between “vegans” and “carnists” in terms of group dynamics, I do not think that necessarily disagrees with the idea that carnists are anti-truthseeking.
It seems untrue that because carnists are not an organized physical group that has meetings and such, they are thereby incapable of having shared norms or ideas/memes. I think in some contexts it can make sense/be useful to refer to a group of people who are not coherent in the sense of explicitly “working together” or having shared newletters based around a subject or whatever. In some cases, it can make sense to refer to those people’s ideologies/norms.
Also, I disagree with the idea that carnists are inherently neutral on the subject of animals/meat. That is, they don’t “not care”. In general, they actively want to eat meat and would be against things that would stop this. That’s not “not caring”; it is “having an agenda”, just not one that opposes the current status quo. The fact that being pro-meat and “okay with factory farming” is the more dominant stance/assumed default in our current status quo doesn’t mean that it isn’t a legitimate position/belief that people could be said to hold. There are many examples of other memetic environments throughout history where the assumed default may not have looked like a “stance” or an “agenda” to the people who were used to it, but nonetheless represented certain ideological claims.
I don’t think something only becomes an “ideology” when it disagrees with the current dominant cultural ideas; some things that are culturally common and baked into people from birth can still absolutely be “ideology” in the way I am used to using it. If we disagree on that, then perhaps we could use a different term?
If nothing else, carnists share the ideological assumption that “eating meat is okay”. In practice, they often also share ideas about the surrounding philosophical questions and attitudes. I don’t think it is beyond the pale to say that they could share norms around truth-seeking as it relates to these questions and attitudes. It feels unnecessarily dismissive and perhaps implicitly status quoist to assume that: as a dominant, implicit meme of our culture “carnism” must be “neutral” and therefore does not come with/correlate with any norms surrounding how people think about/process questions related to animals/meat.
Carnism comes with as much ideology as veganism even if people aren’t as explicit in presenting it or if the typical carnist hasn’t put as much thought into it.
I do not really have any experience advocating publicly for veganism and I wouldn’t really know about which specific espistemic failure modes are common among carnists for these sorts of conversations, but I have seen plenty of people bend themselves out of shape persevering their own comfort and status quo, so it really doesn’t seem like a stretch to imagine that epistemic maladies may tend to present among carnists when the question of veganism comes up.
For one thing, I have personally seen carnists respond in intentionally hostile ways towards vegans/vegan messaging on several occasions. Partially this is because they see it as a threat to their ideas or their way of life or partially this is because veganism is a designated punching bag that you’re allowed to insult in a lot of places. Often times, these attacks draw on shared ideas about veganism/animals/morality that are common between “carnists”.
So, while I agree that there are very different group dynamics, I don’t think it makes sense to say that vegans hold ideologies and are capable of exhibiting certain epistemic behaviors, but that carnists, by virtue of not being a sufficiently coherent collection of individuals, could not have the same labels applied to them.
(edit: idk if i endorse comments like this, i was really stressed from the things being said in the comments here)
People who fund the torture of animals are not a coherent group, not an ideology, they do not have an agenda. People who don’t fund the torture of animals are a coherent group, an ideology, they have an agenda.
People who keep other people enslaved are not a coherent group, not an ideology, they do not have an agenda. People who seek to end slavery are a coherent group, an ideology, they have an agenda.
Normal people like me are not a coherent group, not an ideology, we do not have an agenda.
Atypicals like you are a coherent group, an ideology, you have an agenda.
maybe a future, better, post-singularity version of yourself will understand how terribly alienating statements like this are. maybe that person will see just how out-of-frame you have kept the suffering of other life forms to think this way.
my agenda is that of a confused, tortured animal, crying out in pain. it is, at most, a convulsive reaction. in desperation, it grasps onto ‘instrumental rationality’ like the paws of one being pulled into rotating blades flail around them, looking for a hold to force themself back.
and it finds nothing, the suffering persists until the day the world ends.
Jesus christ, chill. I don’t like playing into the meme of “that’s why people don’t like vegans”, but that’s exactly why.
And posting something insane followed by an edit of “idk if I endorse comments like this” has got to be the most online rationalist thing ever.
i do endorse the actual meaning of what i wrote. it is not “insane” and to call it that is callous. i added the edit because i wasn’t sure if expressions of stress are productive. i think there’s a case to be made that they are when it clearly stems from some ongoing discursive pattern, so that others can know the pain that their words cause. especially given this hostile reaction.
---
deleted the rest of this. there’s no point for two alignment researchers to be fighting over oldworld violence. i hope this will make sense looking back.