Once you tune your radio in, you may find such occasions more exciting.
What I usually dislike about the small talk game is that it’s often played by people who don’t know each other well and/or by people who are so conformist as to be intrinsically boring. It’s one thing to measure alliances among fascinating, dynamic people who are out in the world doing and being things. I would be more than happy to listen to say, Dan Savage, Janet Napolitano, and Max Tegmark make small talk. Ditto people in their 20s who were correspondingly less accomplished but who look likely to get to that kind of exciting impact level later in life.
But when the people sitting around a table are pushing papers in (say) the finance industry by day, watching cable TV in the evening, having vanilla sex at night, and going to see a national rock band and a national sports team over the weekend, what’s the attraction? Or when the people have all just met each other, and are making their strategic decisions about dominance and alliances based on nothing subtler than who they find attractive and who shares their opinion about a piece of pop-culture or current-events trivia? Why should I care how the alliances ultimately break down among a group of people who, as individuals, hold no dramatic interest for me in the first place?
I get that small talk can be practically useful, so I have successfully made an effort to acquire a moderate level of skill at it. But I don’t see why I’m supposed to enjoy it, whether I’m at a pub or a black-tie gala award ceremony.
Because people can tell when you don’t, even if they’re too polite to mention it.
That’s why, btw, “How To Win Friends And Influence People” advises cultivating a genuine interest in people, and PUAs advise more or less the same thing. By becoming a connoisseur of the finer (in the sense of more finely-graded) distinctions between people, and cultivating your curiosity about “what people are like”, you gain more enjoyment.
And genuinely enjoying a person’s company is the hardest, most expensive signal to fake… which might be why people evolved to value it so much.
I know a couple who embody this principle, btw—Garin and Vanessa Bader. I met them at a series of marketing workshops, actually. By their second time there, practically everybody would line up to talk to them during breaks. Not because they were presenters or anything, but just because they radiated such enjoyment to everyone they spoke with, that people could hardly help but want to spend more time with them.
The way Vanessa explained it to me, when I interviewed her for one of my own CD products, was that people are so constantly worried about what other people are going to think of them, that they no longer even notice. But the moment they encounter someone who genuinely accepts them as they are, without any judgment, they suddenly feel so much better that they can’t help but want to be around you. So, she said, she and Garin just always acknowledge and accept everyone.
And that is the difference between these very charismatic (and fairly successful) people, and people who go around judging whether other people are living up to their standards. ;-)
(Fair disclaimer: I don’t claim to have personally reached anything remotely near G&V’s level of nonjudgmental acceptance, but I can definitely see why it’d be a good thing for me to aspire to. And I’ve occasionally attempted to practice it in specific situations, with some small success.)
But the moment they encounter someone who genuinely accepts them as they are, without any judgment, they suddenly feel so much better that they can’t help but want to be around you.
Yes yes yes, a million times yes. This is so true for me. My (successful) attempts to modify myself to be more social were sparked off by meeting just such a person. It was a girl I met on the street three years ago. We started talking, then went to her place and spent the night talking. There was no sexual tension at all (though we did have sex much later), I just sat there thinking “holy crap, I’ve been sitting in a box my whole life, I have to learn this.” It was absolutely glorious to feel not judged in the least. I have since learned to project a similar vibe when I try really hard.
So, she said, she and Garin just always acknowledge and accept everyone.
Allow me to express polite but strong skepticism on this point.
I would be very much surprised to find that they accept literally EVERYONE. Do they acknowledge panhandlers the same way as attendees to marketing conferences? How about leading politicians from the opposite party as theirs? Religious leaders from a different religion?
It’s easy to say “just genuinely accept everyone” when you don’t even see most of the people around you.
In fact, really acknowledging and accepting -everyone- would probably ruin them in short order as they would find all their time and resources wasted on people that they are quite right to filter. No one has the time and resources to -actually- do what they are advocating.
It’s empty advice.
EDIT: fixed some typos after having a nice, stimulating cup of coffee.
Do they acknowledge panhandlers the same way as attendees to marketing conferences? How about leading politicians from the opposite party as theirs? Religious leaders from a different religion?
[shrug] I observed them at least treating wait staff, valets, hotel personnel, etc. with the same warm glow they did everyone else. Also, it’s not like there weren’t some obnoxious people at these conferences—but even when they maintained their personal boundaries, I didn’t see them get judgmental or even show any disapproval. They smiled just as warmly, and bid their farewells.
In fact, really acknowledging and acepting -everyone- would probably ruin them in short order as they would find all their time and resources wasted on people that they are quite right to filter. No one has the time and resources to -actually- do what they are advocating.
I didn’t say they didn’t filter people. They just didn’t judge people.
In other words, they didn’t confuse a conflict of goals with meaning that somebody else was bad, wrong, or unworthy for having those different goals, nor did they confuse accepting people with having to agree with them or give anything that was asked of them. They simply said “no” as warmly as they said “yes”, and often with a sense of reluctance that made you feel as though they genuinely wished the no could have been a yes, but that alas, it was simply not to be.
How does one acknowledge and accept everybody without filtering people?
What I have seen of people who hold non-judgmentalism as a aspiration has led me to believe that it is a deeply anti-rational ideal. The net result is repeating the same mistakes over and over, such as associating with people who will will take advantage of the non-judger, or not correcting a critical failure because it’s judgemental to consider it a failure. By critical failure I mean things like dropping out of the workforce out of sheer laziness; it would be judgemental to say that this is wrong so therefore it’s wrong to stop anyone, including yourself, from doing so.
They simply said “no” as warmly as they said “yes”,
So they judged people and their needs or wants, then proceeded to claim they were non-judgemental. Either somebody isn’t thinking through the meaning of “judgement”, or doesn’t care about the actual implications of that advice if it is really followed 100%.
How does one acknowledge and accept everybody without filtering people?
Er, pjeby said that they did filter people.
They simply said “no” as warmly as they said “yes”,
So they judged people and their needs or wants, then proceeded to claim they were non-judgemental. Either somebody isn’t thinking through the meaning of “judgment”, or doesn’t care about the actual implications of that advice if it is really followed 100%.
Taboojudge. They decided whether to say “yes” or “no” to a request, and they (allegedly) didn’t enter into some class of cognitive states associated with negative affect or disapproval.
Taboo judge. They decided whether to say “yes” or “no” to a request, and they (allegedly) didn’t enter into some class of cognitive states associated with negative affect or disapproval.
Right—where the specific states involved are the ones that we use to signal lowered status or withdrawal of friendly interaction on the basis of a personal inadequacy or moral failing. In the vernacular, they didn’t “look down their noses” on anybody, but instead treated them as if they were worthy of appreciation.
I just went back to listen to parts of the interview again to refresh my memory (it’s been three years), and some of the key points Vanessa made were:
It feels good to experience being approved of, and paid attention to
It also feels good when you make other people feel good, by approving of and listening to them (which is a big part of why she and Garin do it)
Both only happen if you’re sincere, rather than faking it
She says she tries to remember that she can learn something from everyone, as a way of evoking a state of genuine interest in herself
When you proactively project approval towards people before they even do or say anything, they start the conversation relaxed and feeling better—and attribute this to you.
People often confuse arrogance and confidence—they think they have to put on a big show in order to impress people, but really this is just another form of approval seeking.
She described the more useful attitude as “humble, but not apologetic”, i.e., her openness to learn something from anyone, while at the same time not apologizing for her own choices, opinions, or personal boundaries.
These are just quick summaries from a ten-minute excerpt of the full interview, but I think this was the only section where we really talked about approval seeking or the process by which she and Garin “proactively approved of” people before meeting them.
I have a problem here. Filtering implies that some judgement has been made, and the person has been found wanting. It is harmful to advise against filtering, and therefore also harmful to advise against judging.
They decided whether to say “yes” or “no” to a request, and they (allegedly) didn’t enter into some class of cognitive states associated with negative affect or disapproval.
Advising people not to judge others is not the same as what you said. My point is only that this constitues bad advice.
By critical failure I mean things like dropping out of the workforce out of sheer laziness; it would be judgemental to say that this is wrong so therefore it’s wrong to stop anyone, including yourself, from doing so.
Wow. You really are adding a lot of baggage to this… and it has nothing to do with what Vanessa said about how to treat people, or how I saw her and Garin treating people.
I never saw them let anybody walk all over them—they just didn’t get upset by people trying.
There’s a difference between accepting a person, and accepting their behavior.
So they judged people and their needs or wants, then proceeded to claim they were non-judgemental.
Clearly, you are using a different definition of “judge” than I am.
For example, if I were to “judge” you in this interaction, I would say you’re being rude, nasty, and massively projecting your experiences onto something that has nothing to do with them… and I would attribute this as a personal characteristic of you… e.g. you are irrational, you are projecting, etc.
If I were, on the other hand, following Garin and Vanessa’s example, I would probably say something like, “wow, you really had a painful experience with that, didn’t you?” and then either change the subject or drop the conversation if I didn’t want to pursue it any further.
IOW, not judging you, but rather paying attention to your experience and communication, and accepting you as a person worthy of compassion, rather than someone who should be written off as a matter of moral assessment. (vs. simply personally not wanting to continue the interaction).
I hope that that’s enough information for you to be able to separate whatever definition of “judgment” you’re using, from the one I’m talking about here.
(Attempting to make another link with LW references, you might say that Vanessa’s advice was to avoid indulging our human tendency towards fundamental attribution error.)
Let me sum it up more simply:
Telling people not to judge is not an accurate reflection of what they actually do.
I tried to explain why non-judgmentalism is a bad value to uphold. I have nothing to say about Garin and Vanessa, only about the value of the advice proffered.
Allow me to express polite but strong skepticism on this point. I would be very much surprised to find that they accpet literally EVERYONE.
I doubt they meant literally EVERYONE. I’m guessing Garin and Vanessa just meant that they’re in the top percent of non-judgmentally accepting people. Just as if someone says to me ‘I get along with everyone,’ I don’t interpret it as meaning they get along with literally every single person on the planet, I interpret it as something weaker like ‘Of the people I know, I get along with almost all of them, and have a good chance of clicking with random people I meet.’
You make a valid point that the comfort zone of even the most tolerant people is unlikely to extend to random panhandlers, and if Garin and Vanessa spend 99% of their time with self help gurus and marketing conference attendees, they’re probably overestimating their acceptance-ness.
I don’t think this is fatal to pjeby’s main point, though; it sounds likely to me that a lot of people who dislike small talk could probably improve their social hit rate by turning up their acceptance-ness knob.
(Edited to fix Garin’s (not Gavin’s!) name. Note to self: read what’s on the screen, not what I think is on the screen.)
if Gavin [sic] and Vanessa spend 99% of their time with self help gurus and marketing conference attendees, they’re probably overestimating their acceptance-ness.
At the time of those conferences, they spent 99% of their time on cruise ships, working as entertainers. So I they spent a lot more time with tourists and ship staff than with their internet marketing colleagues.
I doubt they meant literally EVERYONE.
And I find it difficult to imagine that they didn’t mean it. I had the impression that for Vanessa at least (I haven’t interviewed Garin for anything, at least not yet), it was a matter of principle.
I don’t mean that they’re saints or that I don’t think they’d ever have a bad day and lose their temper or anything, but I do believe they sincerely look for the (potential) good in literally everyone they encounter, even if there’s some distinct possibility that they might miss it or that it might not be there to be found.
Think of it like being a rationalist aspiration to always tell the truth and never self-decieve: setting that as your aspiration does not mean you always can or will accomplish it, but at the same time, it doesn’t mean your aspiration should be downgraded to “being in the top percentage” of truth-telling and non self-deception!
At the time of those conferences, they spent 99% of their time on cruise ships, working as entertainers. So I they spent a lot more time with tourists and ship staff than with their internet marketing colleagues.
Ah, fair enough.
And I find it difficult to imagine that they didn’t mean it.
Think of it like being a rationalist aspiration to always tell the truth and never self-decieve: setting that as your aspiration does not mean you always can or will accomplish it, but at the same time, it doesn’t mean your aspiration should be downgraded to “being in the top percentage” of truth-telling and non self-deception!
It also doesn’t mean you get to claim that you always tell the truth and never self decieve.
Having known some people who made “accepting everyone” and “being non-judgemental” a point of honour and seen the results, I find it very hard to believe that is possible to be successful and really live up to those ideals. I also don’t think they’re very good ideals.
fascinating, dynamic people who are out in the world doing and being things
How do you think most of these people ended up in the position where people like you are aware of them as representing these traits? Very often it will have been in large part through greater mastery of social dynamics. Generally the best known/most successful people in any given field won’t have got there purely through ability in their field but through a combination of ability in their field and mastery of the social dynamics of that field.
What I usually dislike about the small talk game is that it’s often played by people who don’t know each other well and/or by people who are so conformist as to be intrinsically boring. It’s one thing to measure alliances among fascinating, dynamic people who are out in the world doing and being things. I would be more than happy to listen to say, Dan Savage, Janet Napolitano, and Max Tegmark make small talk. Ditto people in their 20s who were correspondingly less accomplished but who look likely to get to that kind of exciting impact level later in life.
But when the people sitting around a table are pushing papers in (say) the finance industry by day, watching cable TV in the evening, having vanilla sex at night, and going to see a national rock band and a national sports team over the weekend, what’s the attraction? Or when the people have all just met each other, and are making their strategic decisions about dominance and alliances based on nothing subtler than who they find attractive and who shares their opinion about a piece of pop-culture or current-events trivia? Why should I care how the alliances ultimately break down among a group of people who, as individuals, hold no dramatic interest for me in the first place?
I get that small talk can be practically useful, so I have successfully made an effort to acquire a moderate level of skill at it. But I don’t see why I’m supposed to enjoy it, whether I’m at a pub or a black-tie gala award ceremony.
Because people can tell when you don’t, even if they’re too polite to mention it.
That’s why, btw, “How To Win Friends And Influence People” advises cultivating a genuine interest in people, and PUAs advise more or less the same thing. By becoming a connoisseur of the finer (in the sense of more finely-graded) distinctions between people, and cultivating your curiosity about “what people are like”, you gain more enjoyment.
And genuinely enjoying a person’s company is the hardest, most expensive signal to fake… which might be why people evolved to value it so much.
I know a couple who embody this principle, btw—Garin and Vanessa Bader. I met them at a series of marketing workshops, actually. By their second time there, practically everybody would line up to talk to them during breaks. Not because they were presenters or anything, but just because they radiated such enjoyment to everyone they spoke with, that people could hardly help but want to spend more time with them.
The way Vanessa explained it to me, when I interviewed her for one of my own CD products, was that people are so constantly worried about what other people are going to think of them, that they no longer even notice. But the moment they encounter someone who genuinely accepts them as they are, without any judgment, they suddenly feel so much better that they can’t help but want to be around you. So, she said, she and Garin just always acknowledge and accept everyone.
And that is the difference between these very charismatic (and fairly successful) people, and people who go around judging whether other people are living up to their standards. ;-)
(Fair disclaimer: I don’t claim to have personally reached anything remotely near G&V’s level of nonjudgmental acceptance, but I can definitely see why it’d be a good thing for me to aspire to. And I’ve occasionally attempted to practice it in specific situations, with some small success.)
Yes yes yes, a million times yes. This is so true for me. My (successful) attempts to modify myself to be more social were sparked off by meeting just such a person. It was a girl I met on the street three years ago. We started talking, then went to her place and spent the night talking. There was no sexual tension at all (though we did have sex much later), I just sat there thinking “holy crap, I’ve been sitting in a box my whole life, I have to learn this.” It was absolutely glorious to feel not judged in the least. I have since learned to project a similar vibe when I try really hard.
Allow me to express polite but strong skepticism on this point. I would be very much surprised to find that they accept literally EVERYONE. Do they acknowledge panhandlers the same way as attendees to marketing conferences? How about leading politicians from the opposite party as theirs? Religious leaders from a different religion?
It’s easy to say “just genuinely accept everyone” when you don’t even see most of the people around you.
In fact, really acknowledging and accepting -everyone- would probably ruin them in short order as they would find all their time and resources wasted on people that they are quite right to filter. No one has the time and resources to -actually- do what they are advocating.
It’s empty advice.
EDIT: fixed some typos after having a nice, stimulating cup of coffee.
[shrug] I observed them at least treating wait staff, valets, hotel personnel, etc. with the same warm glow they did everyone else. Also, it’s not like there weren’t some obnoxious people at these conferences—but even when they maintained their personal boundaries, I didn’t see them get judgmental or even show any disapproval. They smiled just as warmly, and bid their farewells.
I didn’t say they didn’t filter people. They just didn’t judge people.
In other words, they didn’t confuse a conflict of goals with meaning that somebody else was bad, wrong, or unworthy for having those different goals, nor did they confuse accepting people with having to agree with them or give anything that was asked of them. They simply said “no” as warmly as they said “yes”, and often with a sense of reluctance that made you feel as though they genuinely wished the no could have been a yes, but that alas, it was simply not to be.
How does one acknowledge and accept everybody without filtering people?
What I have seen of people who hold non-judgmentalism as a aspiration has led me to believe that it is a deeply anti-rational ideal. The net result is repeating the same mistakes over and over, such as associating with people who will will take advantage of the non-judger, or not correcting a critical failure because it’s judgemental to consider it a failure. By critical failure I mean things like dropping out of the workforce out of sheer laziness; it would be judgemental to say that this is wrong so therefore it’s wrong to stop anyone, including yourself, from doing so.
So they judged people and their needs or wants, then proceeded to claim they were non-judgemental. Either somebody isn’t thinking through the meaning of “judgement”, or doesn’t care about the actual implications of that advice if it is really followed 100%.
Er, pjeby said that they did filter people.
Taboo judge. They decided whether to say “yes” or “no” to a request, and they (allegedly) didn’t enter into some class of cognitive states associated with negative affect or disapproval.
Right—where the specific states involved are the ones that we use to signal lowered status or withdrawal of friendly interaction on the basis of a personal inadequacy or moral failing. In the vernacular, they didn’t “look down their noses” on anybody, but instead treated them as if they were worthy of appreciation.
I just went back to listen to parts of the interview again to refresh my memory (it’s been three years), and some of the key points Vanessa made were:
It feels good to experience being approved of, and paid attention to
It also feels good when you make other people feel good, by approving of and listening to them (which is a big part of why she and Garin do it)
Both only happen if you’re sincere, rather than faking it
She says she tries to remember that she can learn something from everyone, as a way of evoking a state of genuine interest in herself
When you proactively project approval towards people before they even do or say anything, they start the conversation relaxed and feeling better—and attribute this to you.
People often confuse arrogance and confidence—they think they have to put on a big show in order to impress people, but really this is just another form of approval seeking.
She described the more useful attitude as “humble, but not apologetic”, i.e., her openness to learn something from anyone, while at the same time not apologizing for her own choices, opinions, or personal boundaries.
These are just quick summaries from a ten-minute excerpt of the full interview, but I think this was the only section where we really talked about approval seeking or the process by which she and Garin “proactively approved of” people before meeting them.
I have a problem here. Filtering implies that some judgement has been made, and the person has been found wanting. It is harmful to advise against filtering, and therefore also harmful to advise against judging.
Advising people not to judge others is not the same as what you said. My point is only that this constitues bad advice.
Wow. You really are adding a lot of baggage to this… and it has nothing to do with what Vanessa said about how to treat people, or how I saw her and Garin treating people.
I never saw them let anybody walk all over them—they just didn’t get upset by people trying.
There’s a difference between accepting a person, and accepting their behavior.
Clearly, you are using a different definition of “judge” than I am.
For example, if I were to “judge” you in this interaction, I would say you’re being rude, nasty, and massively projecting your experiences onto something that has nothing to do with them… and I would attribute this as a personal characteristic of you… e.g. you are irrational, you are projecting, etc.
If I were, on the other hand, following Garin and Vanessa’s example, I would probably say something like, “wow, you really had a painful experience with that, didn’t you?” and then either change the subject or drop the conversation if I didn’t want to pursue it any further.
IOW, not judging you, but rather paying attention to your experience and communication, and accepting you as a person worthy of compassion, rather than someone who should be written off as a matter of moral assessment. (vs. simply personally not wanting to continue the interaction).
I hope that that’s enough information for you to be able to separate whatever definition of “judgment” you’re using, from the one I’m talking about here.
(Attempting to make another link with LW references, you might say that Vanessa’s advice was to avoid indulging our human tendency towards fundamental attribution error.)
Let me sum it up more simply: Telling people not to judge is not an accurate reflection of what they actually do.
I tried to explain why non-judgmentalism is a bad value to uphold. I have nothing to say about Garin and Vanessa, only about the value of the advice proffered.
As I said, you can judge behavior without judging a person. i.e., I can say, “I don’t like what you’re doing”, without it meaning “I don’t like you”.
The advice was about judging people, not about refraining from judgment in the abstract.
I doubt they meant literally EVERYONE. I’m guessing Garin and Vanessa just meant that they’re in the top percent of non-judgmentally accepting people. Just as if someone says to me ‘I get along with everyone,’ I don’t interpret it as meaning they get along with literally every single person on the planet, I interpret it as something weaker like ‘Of the people I know, I get along with almost all of them, and have a good chance of clicking with random people I meet.’
You make a valid point that the comfort zone of even the most tolerant people is unlikely to extend to random panhandlers, and if Garin and Vanessa spend 99% of their time with self help gurus and marketing conference attendees, they’re probably overestimating their acceptance-ness.
I don’t think this is fatal to pjeby’s main point, though; it sounds likely to me that a lot of people who dislike small talk could probably improve their social hit rate by turning up their acceptance-ness knob.
(Edited to fix Garin’s (not Gavin’s!) name. Note to self: read what’s on the screen, not what I think is on the screen.)
At the time of those conferences, they spent 99% of their time on cruise ships, working as entertainers. So I they spent a lot more time with tourists and ship staff than with their internet marketing colleagues.
And I find it difficult to imagine that they didn’t mean it. I had the impression that for Vanessa at least (I haven’t interviewed Garin for anything, at least not yet), it was a matter of principle.
I don’t mean that they’re saints or that I don’t think they’d ever have a bad day and lose their temper or anything, but I do believe they sincerely look for the (potential) good in literally everyone they encounter, even if there’s some distinct possibility that they might miss it or that it might not be there to be found.
Think of it like being a rationalist aspiration to always tell the truth and never self-decieve: setting that as your aspiration does not mean you always can or will accomplish it, but at the same time, it doesn’t mean your aspiration should be downgraded to “being in the top percentage” of truth-telling and non self-deception!
Ah, fair enough.
!
It also doesn’t mean you get to claim that you always tell the truth and never self decieve.
Having known some people who made “accepting everyone” and “being non-judgemental” a point of honour and seen the results, I find it very hard to believe that is possible to be successful and really live up to those ideals. I also don’t think they’re very good ideals.
How do you think most of these people ended up in the position where people like you are aware of them as representing these traits? Very often it will have been in large part through greater mastery of social dynamics. Generally the best known/most successful people in any given field won’t have got there purely through ability in their field but through a combination of ability in their field and mastery of the social dynamics of that field.